LOTR Survivor

[Koneko]

*scowls* Two elves? Not good. Not good at all. ++ Faramir. Galadriel and Glorfindel must be protected!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Why are you so set and determined to get Faramir off anyway, Saucey? Do you have a particular problem with him being here?

Yes.

Formendacil has stated the book case, which is a powerful one.

But let's face it, we are voting for contestants in a tropical island based reality show here. We should be judging them on their deeds on the island, how suited they are to their environment and how entertaining they are to us the viewers, not their past deeds (glorious, indifferent or otherwise).

Faramir makes dull viewing. Plain and simple. And he's not as pure as you would wish him to be. He has now hired two lawyers in a blatant attempt to influence the voting. A clear breach of the rules of the game. He is most undeserving of the prize. That would send out all the wrong kinds of messages.

Assuming that Faramir goes (and it really is about time that he did), anyone else who shares my interest in keeping this show exciting should be looking to keep the tribes fairly evenly matched. Then it will come down to a straight fight between them in the final days. So that means voting off another "Man" tomorrow, and then a Hobbit the following day.

Oh, and if your going to vote for an Orc, at least have the good sense to vote for the dishonourable one. As Orcs go, Ugluk is a diamond geezer.

[Folwren]

Conjecture! Your Honour, we are dealing with FACTS, not with random conjecture. The fact is that Faramir DID in fact let the One Ring slip by, in direct contravention of his Lord's will, as well as being the most reckless move one could make in a war that his people were already losing terribly. It's all very well to say that in the end it was better, the fact is that at the time of occurrence, this action was reckless and disobedient.

Disobedient to what? To a man who was half mad with the want of power! Faramir knew that his father was insane in his lust! Besides that, in law there is no such thing as 'at the time of occurance'. All that matters is the final outcome.
Besides that, if you want to press your case if disobedience, the take into mind that during War, different choices have to be made. A law has to have an exception, right? In order to be an actual law? That was an acception. This was a special case. Faramir didn't have time to run back home and ask the steward if he could let thse Hobbits go. He knew there wasn't any time to take them to Denethor, either. Time was running short. It was a War. It happens like that sometimes.

Might I remind you that we only have Faramir's word for this- and of his brother Boromir in Rivendell. Boromir is well known for his affection for his brother, and would very likely have tried to present him in a better light. Again, I ask you to look at the FACTS. And the fact is that Faramir remained in Gondor while Boromir went to Rivendell.

You disgust me.

'It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.' -Faramir

'Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself.' -Denethor

Denethor, who did not look kindly upon Faramir, nor wish to make him look good, said that it was he who had sent Boromir off on the errand. Faramir would have gone. He offered himself to go, but his father refused. These are facts.

I am not saying that the others are any better! Note that Sam and Aragorn have already been removed. And furthermore, although Boromir does not mention Faramir- despite being as reputedly close to him as Sam to his Gaffer- he makes no mention of him, perhaps having nothing good to say, although he mentions his much-maligned father several times.

Sam and Aragorn are gone due not to these things, but for certain persons likes or dislikes.
There was no occasion to mention Faramir, that is why. Simple reasoning. You keep stabbing me for not using Facts, but this is certainly something that is completely assumed. Anyone can see right through this argument.

Not being a woman, I cannot answer that. However, history shows many records of men seducing or forcing women into their arms. As well as many records of women chosing to marry with no love on their part.

Not in the history of the Shieldmaiden. I will remind you, Eowyn was no weakling and not one likely to be seduced or forced to do anything she didn't want to do in respect of that.
I know from personal experience (not my own experience...) that women who are about to marry someone they don't love don't act like Eowyn did.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury! You have seen the evidence from both sides of the floor, and it is unlikely that you will find this courtroom of one mind. But I should like to remind you of the consequences of keeping Faramir in this game!

This is the Middle-Earth Forum, and we are to abide by its rules. The Prime Directive of these rules is "humour". We are lawfully bound to amuse and entertain- and even to be random.

By keeping Faramir in this game, you are deliberately aiding and abetting this rule-breaking felon in his attempt to bring this game to a competition between men only. You will be upsetting the balance of the tribes no matter which way you choose otherwise. Unless you vote off another Man, the unpredictability and randomness, indeed the very humour, of this game will be broken.

Ha! Deliberately aiding!

I'll remind you that anything I join in, it often because a debate. Take the Werewolf Game I played, Favorite Hobbits, and now this. Humour? I enjoy debating...it amuses me.

The bloc defending Faramir right now is as unjust and selfish as the bloc that defended Celeborn. It is a self-righteous bloc determined to see their man win at all costs, regardless of whether the humour of this game suffers.

You're not supposed to insult the opposing attorney! That goes totally against the laws of this court room.

I beseech you all, therefore, to remove this unsightly blight on our game, and all vote for the removal of Faramir.

I seriously don't mind another man being taken out, but why Faramir? Get Hama....he's more deserving of your dislikes.

The Jury will decide. Neither of us have the final say.

Faramir should stay, and by the looks of things, the people are agreeing with me.

-- Folwren

[Lalaith]

Well I'll go for
++Ugluk
for now, but I thought the deal was that we'd do Grishnakh today? I'd prefer to lose him first, I must say *whispers* you know, halitosis and armpit issues.

[Boromir88]

++Faramir

Plus he stalks Eowyn.

Votes-

Faramir- 7
Ugluk- 3
Eowyn- 2
Boromir- 1

[Folwren]

Your honor, if I may...thank you.

However, since you seem to choose to disregard the evidence of His Excellency, the Steward of Gondor, I would like to point out that the actions of Faramir in dealing with the One Ring does, in fact, smack of stupidity. As you note, he doesn't even ask to see the Ring, but sends it off with Frodo. Those of us with 20/20 hindsight can see that this was ultimately the wise thing to do, but even Gandalf admits that the course of Denethor- the course that Faramir was bound to follow as an officer of the Gondorian army- was the prudent course. Faramir was stupidly disobeying his orders, and doing so for stupid reasons: "The Hobbits said that Gandalf said it was better."

Faramir was wise beyond your comprehension, evidently.

When he first met Frodo, he took him captive because he didn't have time to decide then and there. They talked about it some after the battle before going to his cave. During that short talk, he realized that Frodo's quest was something more than a hobbit's walking party and this was serious. He made a promise to Frodo somehwere in that time period (I can't remember if it was during the questioning or their walk) that he would not pick up the thing even if lay by the road side.
Later, when Sam let it slip that it was the Ring, Faramir realized just how powerful this thing that Frodo bore was. He'd heard the old tales and understood. What is more, Sam had pretty much told him what happened to Boromir. Knowing Boromir, Faramir knew immediately what he had fallen into with all the envy and lust for the thing. He had no desire to see it because he knew it wouldn't do any good for him, and it would only cause a lot of harm.

And he did not take the Hobbits back to Gondor because if he did, his father would get his nasty hands on the Ring and then everybody would fall. He knew his father, and he knew his pride. If he had taken the hobbits back to Minas Tirith, Middle-Earth would have been doomed. You know that as a fact! Faramir had no other choice than to do what he did! It was a difficult decision to make, and he made the best that he possibly could.

Faramir was most definitely lazy. As his actions during the War of the Ring will show, he allowed his brother, the much needed Captain-General of Gondor, to make the 100-day journey to Rivendell while he remained in a three day radius of the White City. Next, we present as evidence his reluctance at taking command of the men in Osgiliath, when he was, as Denethor noted, the most logical choice for command. Finally, although we have no EVIDENCE of a dereliction of duty, one will note that he was conspicuous among the prominent commanders of the Western alliance in his absence at both the Field of Pelennor and the Black Gate.

Oh, look it up! That's worse than your first accusation against him! He DID offer to go to Rivendel...he wanted to! But Boromir said he wanted to, and we all know which of the sons Denethor liked better! Faramir offered himself...he understood the dreams best, he should have gone! And then the Fellowship might not have split!

Also, he was quite unable to go onto the Field of Pelennor or to the Black Gate considering that he was on death's doorstep. He got wounded at the very beginning of battle, if you'll recall.

Worthless is a subjective term, and isn't one that can be made based so much on one person's decisions, but on the decisions of others concerning him. But take note of those who knew him well:

Boromir, although Faramir claims he was close to him, makes not a mention of him from Rivendell to his death, although he mentions his father several times. Denethor, as already noted, DOES indeed think him worthless. His wife-to-be, Eowyn, only accepts him as a second-best choice. Aragorn is so unconcerned with him, that he does not dispense with his chief rival, but goes so far as to make him prince, and his steward to boot. If he were concerned at all about him, he'd have the sense to make a less well-connected man, like Hurin of the Keys, his steward.

How many warriors of that time do you know that mentioned their brothers and/or sisters on journeys like that? Sam only mentioned one of his sisters, and he had several. Aragorn didn't talk about his people very much. He mentioned his Father because his Father just happened to be the head person in Minas Tirith at the time. I'll warrant you that if his father was just some random Captain of the Guard, then he wouldn't have been mentioned too many times.

Eowyn accepts him because she realizes that she was loving a shadow and a dream. She didn't really love Aragorn...she loved the Kingship and the Glory. Faramir was an awesome man...strong, smart, calm, patient, gentle, though also a warrior. How could any woman not fall in love with him?

Aragorn chose him as his Steward because that was his rightful place, having been the son of the former Steward. (Therefore showing that he isn't worthless.)

Clearly, his is anything but lazy, stupid, and worthless. Faramir had better stay.

Faramir makes dull viewing. Plain and simple. And he's not as pure as you would wish him to be. He has now hired two lawyers in a blatant attempt to influence the voting. A clear breach of the rules of the game. He is most undeserving of the prize. That would send out all the wrong kinds of messages.

I can't help but laugh at you, Saucey. Don't you know? Only the best people have two lawyers!!

-- Folwren

[The Saucepan Man]

As I said, Faramir's past history counts for nought in this game. I'm judging him on his contribution to the show. And he's boring me rigid.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Only the best people have two lawyers!!

Since when have reality show contestants been allowed to employ lawyers to plead their case and enhance their prospects in the game? It's like allowing someone to take a panel of experts onto Who Wants To Be A Millionaire to answer the questions for them.

I am yet to hear any defence to the charge that he is guilty of first degree cheating.

[mormegil]

--Faramir

++Ugluk

[Kath]

Since when have reality show contestants been allowed to employ lawyers to plead their case and enhance their prospects in the game?
But Sauce, what evidence do we have that Faramir actually hired these laywers? They may have just wanted glory for themselves, or an anti-Faramir person might have hired them in order to create the illusion that Faramir was cheating?

Until this reasonable doubt has been cleared from my mind my vote will go to

++UGLUK

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Your honor, if I may...thank you.

Faramir was wise beyond your comprehension, evidently.

When he first met Frodo, he took him captive because he didn't have time to decide then and there. They talked about it some after the battle before going to his cave. During that short talk, he realized that Frodo's quest was something more than a hobbit's walking party and this was serious. He made a promise to Frodo somehwere in that time period (I can't remember if it was during the questioning or their walk) that he would not pick up the thing even if lay by the road side.
Later, when Sam let it slip that it was the Ring, Faramir realized just how powerful this thing that Frodo bore was. He'd heard the old tales and understood. What is more, Sam had pretty much told him what happened to Boromir. Knowing Boromir, Faramir knew immediately what he had fallen into with all the envy and lust for the thing. He had no desire to see it because he knew it wouldn't do any good for him, and it would only cause a lot of harm.

And he did not take the Hobbits back to Gondor because if he did, his father would get his nasty hands on the Ring and then everybody would fall. He knew his father, and he knew his pride. If he had taken the hobbits back to Minas Tirith, Middle-Earth would have been doomed. You know that as a fact! Faramir had no other choice than to do what he did! It was a difficult decision to make, and he made the best that he possibly could.

Conjecture! Your Honour, we are dealing with FACTS, not with random conjecture. The fact is that Faramir DID in fact let the One Ring slip by, in direct contravention of his Lord's will, as well as being the most reckless move one could make in a war that his people were already losing terribly. It's all very well to say that in the end it was better, the fact is that at the time of occurrence, this action was reckless and disobedient.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Oh, look it up! That's worse than your first accusation against him! He DID offer to go to Rivendel...he wanted to! But Boromir said he wanted to, and we all know which of the sons Denethor liked better! Faramir offered himself...he understood the dreams best, he should have gone! And then the Fellowship might not have split!

Also, he was quite unable to go onto the Field of Pelennor or to the Black Gate considering that he was on death's doorstep. He got wounded at the very beginning of battle, if you'll recall.

Might I remind you that we only have Faramir's word for this- and of his brother Boromir in Rivendell. Boromir is well known for his affection for his brother, and would very likely have tried to present him in a better light. Again, I ask you to look at the FACTS. And the fact is that Faramir remained in Gondor while Boromir went to Rivendell.

Originally Posted by Folwren

How many warriors of that time do you know that mentioned their brothers and/or sisters on journeys like that? Sam only mentioned one of his sisters, and he had several. Aragorn didn't talk about his people very much. He mentioned his Father because his Father just happened to be the head person in Minas Tirith at the time. I'll warrant you that if his father was just some random Captain of the Guard, then he wouldn't have been mentioned too many times.

I am not saying that the others are any better! Note that Sam and Aragorn have already been removed. And furthermore, although Boromir does not mention Faramir- despite being as reputedly close to him as Sam to his Gaffer- he makes no mention of him, perhaps having nothing good to say, although he mentions his much-maligned father several times.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Eowyn accepts him because she realizes that she was loving a shadow and a dream. She didn't really love Aragorn...she loved the Kingship and the Glory. Faramir was an awesome man...strong, smart, calm, patient, gentle, though also a warrior. How could any woman not fall in love with him?

Not being a woman, I cannot answer that. However, history shows many records of men seducing or forcing women into their arms. As well as many records of women chosing to marry with no love on their part.

Would I be too brash, perhaps, to liken Faramir to Ar-Pharazon? I think not.

Originally Posted by Folrwen

Aragorn chose him as his Steward because that was his rightful place, having been the son of the former Steward. (Therefore showing that he isn't worthless.)

Rightful place? The "right" to the title of steward was one granted by the King, and could be revoked by the King. If Aragorn had felt any political pressure from the son of the old ruling house, he would have revoked their title at any moment. Remember at the his coronation, Faramir handed over his staff- symbolic of his title- because he knew that the new king could take it any time he wished.

[quote=FolwrenClearly, he is anything but lazy, stupid, and worthless. Faramir had better stay.[/quote]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury! You have seen the evidence from both sides of the floor, and it is unlikely that you will find this courtroom of one mind. But I should like to remind you of the consequences of keeping Faramir in this game!

This is the Middle-Earth Forum, and we are to abide by its rules. The Prime Directive of these rules is "humour". We are lawfully bound to amuse and entertain- and even to be random.

By keeping Faramir in this game, you are deliberately aiding and abetting this rule-breaking felon in his attempt to bring this game to a competition between men only. You will be upsetting the balance of the tribes no matter which way you choose otherwise. Unless you vote off another Man, the unpredictability and randomness, indeed the very humour, of this game will be broken.

The bloc defending Faramir right now is as unjust and selfish as the bloc that defended Celeborn. It is a self-righteous bloc determined to see their man win at all costs, regardless of whether the humour of this game suffers.

I beseech you all, therefore, to remove this unsightly blight on our game, and all vote for the removal of Faramir.

[arcticstorm]

++FAramir