Curses!

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps the Noldor brought it upon themselves... but does that make the POWER of the Doom any less powerful? Just because Turin did nothing to deserve it, the curse of Morgoth led him to have all his acts lead ultimately to ruin- the same as the Doom of the Noldor did to the acts of that people.

I would say that depends upon how you look at it. The simple fact that Morgoth could curse Hurin and his family, through no fault of theirs, shows the extreme power of this curse. And with the curse of the Noldor, since it was brought upon them by their actions, doesn't seem as powerful but it was handed down essentially by Eru, therefore powerful in that regard.

So in other words the reason I would say that the curse of Hurin is more powerful is that it came because independent of anything he did to deserve such a curse. I would say the curse of the Valar is more powerful because of the sheer scope of who it covered and applied to. The problem I have in comparing them is how different they are it seems like you're comparing apples to oranges.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

The problem I have in comparing them is how different they are it seems like you're comparing apples to oranges.

"To curses other curses no doubt appear different. Or to cursemakers."

I do not know that they are so different. They are essentially the same in what they doom, that those cursed will find all their actions turned to naught.

It is not perhaps more a comparison between a Golden Delicious and a crabapple?

[The Perky Ent]

Grey Area! Grey Area! Well...how do you define power? Clearly, curses hold much power in Arda. From the curse of the Noldor, to the curse of Morgoth, even to the curse Isildur places upon the dead men under the mountain. One man (granted he's a decentant of Elros and of royal numenorian descent) placing a curse on a group of people, granting them an immortality until they fufil their oath. That seems like a powerful one as well! Morgoth's curse upon Hurin clearly is the more tragic. I don't think any of us say "Wow! I wish I could have been Turin! His life was fun!" The fact that the curse of Melkor rules the entire lives of the children of Hurin is rather interesting. I'm still getting more and more intrigued by Isildur's curse. One man casting a curse more powerful (well, that's what this thread is about, isn't it?) than that of the valar. The valar's curse works on a more massive scale, and if you measure power in that sense, the answer would be the valar's curse. Making many suffer for that which they may not have deserved (not counting the dead). I'm not really sure what to say, because A) I'm not that familiar with the curse of the valar, and cannot find my copy of the sil, and B) Because I'm not sure how to measure power. Because of my lack of knowlege, I'll side with the Valar's curse on the Noldor. It's on a more widespread scale, and the wrath is spread more rashly



3000th post! Wowzers!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Perky Ent

Grey Area! Grey Area! Well...how do you define power? Clearly, curses hold much power in Arda. From the curse of the Noldor, to the curse of Morgoth, even to the curse Isildur places upon the dead men under the mountain.

Oooh!!

Isildur's curse... Now that IS an interesting thing to add to the mix. How does the curse of a mortal man (Numenorean but still mortal) compare? It seems, if possible, even more binding than that of Morgoth or Mandos.

The curse of Morgoth, at least, was broken by death. Nienor and Turin both died, and so were freed. The Doom of the Noldor was breakable by death, and rebirth in Valinor...

But the Curse of Isildur?

The Curse of Isildur held its victims after death, until it had what it wanted.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The curse of Morgoth, at least, was broken by death. Nienor and Turin both died, and so were freed. The Doom of the Noldor was breakable by death, and rebirth in Valinor...

But the Curse of Isildur?

The Curse of Isildur held its victims after death, until it had what it wanted.

Yes, I've been wondering about that, too. But the thing I'm wondering is what ability did Isildur have to make such a curse? I mean, certainly he can say anything he wants about then never resting, but what actually makes his curse hold? Surely it was something that did not go with all Men, or else we'd have a lot more curses. Was it some power he possessed by himself? Or was it just that the Valar, or Eru, thought his curse was valid enough to put into fact?

[Bergil]

That wasn't a curse, it was an agreement. Perhaps the inderect involvement of a maia made it binding.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Bergil

That wasn't a curse, it was an agreement. Perhaps the inderect involvement of a maia made it binding.

The indirect involvement of what Maia? Do you mean Sauron?

If so, I highly doubt it, since it would be to Sauron's benefit to have the Dead die and remain dead.

The Istari?

They weren't in Middle-Earth yet.

Who were you thinking?

I'll agree with you that the curse was a matter of the broken agreement, but it only came to a curse because they BROKE the agreement. Isildur didn't HAVE to curse them for breaking their oath- but he did.

I wonder if the ability to curse like that wasn't tied to the Kingship of Gondor? After all, in Numenor the king was the "high priest of Eru", so to speak, the only one who could speak on Meneltarma on those great feasts. Is there some sort of spiritual inheritance- and inherited power- tied to the Kings of Gondor and Arnor related to that?

Or could it possibly be, as Bergil says, tied to a Maia. But the Maia I am thinking of is Melian, Isildur's many greats- grandmother. Is this another property the line of Elros inherited, along with great healer abilities?

Not sure...

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Return of the King; The Passing of the Grey Company

Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end."

Bergil, he did curse them.

I'm glad you called me on that, or else I wouldn't have gone back and reread the passage. The part that really tugs at me is where it says 'if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master'. I think Isildur is basically calling on the Valar to do this and show that they are stronger than Sauron. Which of course they are; so they did.