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Old 09-11-2005, 03:20 PM   #1
davem
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This chapter divides up into three sections - the journey to the gate, the confrontation with the Mouth of Sauron & the attack on the Gondorians/Rohirrim by Sauron’s forces seen mainly from Pippin’s point of view.

During the journey east to the Gates three things stand out for me. First is the episode at the Crossroads:

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Then Aragorn set trumpeters at each of the four roads that ran into the ring of trees, and they blew a great fanfare, and the heralds cried aloud: 'The Lords of Gondor have returned and all this land that is theirs they take back.' The hideous orc-head that was set upon the carven figure was cast down and broken in pieces, and the old king's head was raised and set in its place once more, still crowned with white and golden flowers; and men laboured to wash and pare away all the foul scrawls that orcs had put upon the stone.
‘Men laboured to wash & pare away all the foul scrawls that the orcs had put upon the stone.’ At first sight this may seem like a waste of time & effort. It doesn’t sound like an easy task - the word ‘labouring’ implies a good deal of effort. These are warriors heading for a battle. Setting them to mend the statue seems like something that should have been taken care of afterwards, if they had achieved victory, because if they had failed & been defeated, such an action would have been a waste, as the victorious forces oof Sauron would simply have knocked of the head again & replaced it with their mocking replacement.

Yet, it doesn’t seem like a waste of time & effort in the context- it seems exactly the sort of thing that they ought to do & in many ways it is part of the task they have set themselves. They are marching out to defy Sauron & play their part, not simply in defeating him, but in removing all traces of him from Middle-earth. Also, & maybe more importantly, it is a symbolic ‘coronation’ of the king - in fact it is a restoration of the king. It is yet another act of defiance, of provocation, on the part of Aragorn.

Not long after this provocation is emphasised:

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Ever and anon Gandalf let blow the trumpets, and the heralds would cry: 'The Lords of Gondor are come! Let all leave this land or yield them up!' But Imrahil said: 'Say not The Lords of Gondor. Say The King Elessar. For that is true, even though he has not yet sat upon the throne; and it will give the Enemy more thought, if the heralds use that name.' And thereafter thrice a day the heralds proclaimed the coming of the King Elessar.
Gandalf seems to hold back a little here - he commands the heralds to proclaim the presence of the Lords of Gondor: it is Imrahil who states that they should rather order Sauron to depart in the name of the King. Why was Gandalf so reticent, especially after his words in the Last Debate? My own feeling is that he felt Aragorn should be hailed king by one of his own people. For all that Gandalf is their ‘spokesman’ & guide he knows that he is not the one to push forward Aragorn as king. In a real sense he is beginning to step back & let Men decide for themselves, rule their own house.

Next, we have Aragorn sending away those too terrified to go on:

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Aragorn looked at them, and there was pity in his eyes rather than wrath; for these were young men from Rohan, from Wesffold far away, or husbandmen from Lossarnach, and to them Mordor had been from childhood a name of evil, and yet unreal, a legend that had no part in their simple life; and now they walked like men in a hideous dream made true, and they understood not this war nor why fate should lead them to such a pass.
As is made clear, these are ordinary men facing an extraordinary situation. Aragorn shows both compassion & a sharp wit. These men would have been unable to face what was ahead. If he had commanded them to go on they would have been worse than useless - they would very probably have seriously disheartened the rest of his forces. Yet at the same time he displays compassion & understanding by giving them another task to perform:

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Then some being shamed by his mercy overcame their fear and went on, and the others took new hope, hearing of a manful deed within their measure that they could turn to, and they departed.
He shows his true royalty here - not simply his martial prowess & his authority to command, but just as importantly, his concern for hiis people - even if the result of that is that he himself is put at a disadvantage:

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And so, since many men had already been left at the Cross-roads, it was with less than six thousands that the Captains of the West came at last to challenge the Black Gate and the might of Mordor.
The second part of the chapter is the confrontation with the Mouth. This is a bluff on Sauron’s part - but we only realise that later, or on a second reading. On a first reading we are in more or less the same position as the Captains. The last we heard of Frodo was that he had been captured by the orcs of Cirith Ungol. Everything the Mouth says may well be true. Frodo has been taken & stripped & the Ring is now in/on the hand of Sauron & the Captains about to die in a pointless battle.

Yet...Sauron does not have the Ring & suspects that Aragorn may have it, so why the elaborate game? Why would he send his servant out to offer the release of Frodo if the West surrenders? Precisely because he doesn’t know for certain that Aragorn has it. This is a test. Back Aragorn into a corner & force him to show his hand. If he has the Ring he will tell Sauron where to get off as far as surrender is concerned. On the other hand, if he does surrender that will confirm beyond doubt that Aragorn does not have the Ring (at least that would be Sauron’s take on things. Wisely, Aragorn does not speak to confirm or deny, but he does use his greater ‘will’ to daunt the Mouth - an ambiguous action which neither confirms nor denies Sauron’s suspicions.

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Before them towards Mordor lay like a moat a great mire of reeking mud and foul-smelling pools. When all was ordered, the Captains rode forth towards the Black Gate with a great guard of horsemen and the banner and heralds and trumpeters. There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond, and Eomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were hidden to go also, so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a witness.
This is almost a repetition of what happened in the confrontation with Saruman. Representatives of all the free folk go to the parley, but Gandalf serves as spokesman.

The Mouth is an interesting figure. He is not a monster but a man:

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At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, ..The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.
‘No Ringwraith but a living man.’ He is not a slave, but a willing servant, one who has chosen to serve Sauron. He has not been seduced, or conned into that service. He has chosen it in full knowledge ‘being enamoured of evil knowledge.’ He ‘worships’ Sauron (we were told earlier that Gollum ‘worshipped’ Shelob, & Gollum was originally driven by his desire for hidden knowledge, for ‘secrets’). He sneers at those gathered before him, mocking their intelligence & already treating them as the slaves he is convinced they will soon be. Yet he is a typical coward - as soon as he is challenged he breaks & begs for ‘mercy’:

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Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.
Churchill’s words come to mind: ‘The nazi is always either at your throat, or at your knees.’ The fate held out for Frodo is very close to the fate of Hurin at the hands of Morgoth & its pretty certain that some at least among those present would have had that story very much in mind:

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And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done
Gandalf seems broken by the threat to Frodo: 'Name the terms,' said Gandalf steadily, but those nearby saw the anguish in his face, and now he seemed an old and wizened man, crushed, defeated at the last.’ It seems that Sauron’s bluff is about to work, but at the last moment Gandalf calls it:

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Where is this prisoner? Let him be brought forth and yielded to us, and then we will consider these demands.'
It seemed then to Gandalf, intent, watching him as a man engaged in fencing with a deadly foe, that for the taking of a breath the Messenger was at a loss; yet swiftly he laughed again.
'Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron!' he cried. 'Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!'
‘Collapse of stout party’:

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(Gandalf) cast aside his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place. Before his upraised hand the foul Messenger recoiled, and Gandalf coming seized and took from him the tokens: coat, cloak, and sword. 'These we will take in memory of our friend,' he cried. 'But as for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone, for your embassy is over and death is near to you. We did not come here to waste words in treating with Sauron, faithless and accursed; still less with one of his slaves. Begone!'
Then the Messenger of Mordor laughed no more. His face was twisted with amazement and anger to the likeness of some wild beast that, as it crouches on its prey, is smitten on the muzzle with a stinging rod. Rage filled him and his mouth slavered, and shapeless sounds of fury came strangling from his throat. But he looked at the fell faces of the Captains and their deadly eyes, and fear overcame his wrath. He gave a great cry, and turned, leaped upon his steed, and with his company galloped madly back to Cirith Gorgor.
Finally, battle comes, & we see it, in the main, through Pippin’s eyes:

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He drew his sword and looked at it, and the intertwining shapes of red and gold; and the flowing characters of Numenor glinted like fire upon the blade. 'This was made for just such an hour,' he thought. 'If only I could smite that foul Messenger with it, then almost I should draw level with old Merry. Well, I'll smite some of this beastly brood before the end. I wish I could see cool sunlight and green grass again!'...
Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath him. Blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.
'So it ends as I guessed it would,' his thought said, even as it fluttered away; and it laughed a little within him ere it fled, almost gay it seemed to be casting off at last all doubt and care and fear.
Pippin runs the gamut of emotions - he begins in defiance, goes through feelings of regret, defiance, & ends, strangely, happy & at peace. On a first reading we are pretty certain he has died there before the Black Gates.

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And then even as it winged away into forgetfulness it heard voices, and they seemed to be crying in some forgotten world far above:
'The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are coming!'
For one moment more Pippin's thought hovered. 'Bilbo!' It said. 'But no! That came in his tale, long long ago. This is my tale, and it is ended now. Good-bye!' And his thought fled far away and his eyes saw no more.
This, obviously, is a reference to Bilbo’s experience at the Battle of Five Armies. The appearance of the eagles is far more moving here, as befits what is a much more serious work. Also, the appearance of eagles of Manwe at times of hopelessness runs through The Sil. This appearance of eagles is meant, I think, to make us recall what happened to Bilbo - Bilbo was knocked unconscious but woke up none the worse for it. It is another instance of Tolkien attempting to tie in the earlier book to the Legendarium.

Some of us (a very few, I accept) have to struggle at those points to recall only certain things from TH at that point. It is a potentially dangerous manouvre on Tolkien’s part to remind us too strongly of TH at this point - the image of the attacking trolls here being called Bert & Tom & speaking in bad ‘Cockerney’ risks turning the incident into farce:

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But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands. Reckless they sprang into the pools and waded across, bellowing ‘Poor little blighters!’as they came.

Last edited by davem; 09-11-2005 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:48 AM   #2
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Then Aragorn set trumpeters at each of the four roads that ran into the ring of trees, and they blew a great fanfare, and the heralds cried aloud: 'The Lords of Gondor have returned and all this land that is theirs they take back.'
This brings to mind Wiccan rituals. The Men are in a circle, which is reminiscent of the magical circle cast for protection; that it is one of trees makes this more significant. But what really caught my attention was that Aragorn had trumpeters at the four roads. In Wicca there are the four corners, or guardians of the four towers, each of which are invoked at commencement of the ritual and then thanked at the end. Here each of the roads heads North, South, East and West, and this also corresponds to the Wiccan corners or towers.

I'm sure Tolkien would not have intended this as to be seen as specifically Wiccan (not least because this would have been fairly arcane knowledge at the time), but otherwise, I'm not sure where he would have gained this image from, and what the significance of it is. I'd be interested to hear what other 'Downers think.

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The hideous orc-head that was set upon the carven figure was cast down and broken in pieces, and the old king's head was raised and set in its place once more, still crowned with white and golden flowers; and men laboured to wash and pare away all the foul scrawls that orcs had put upon the stone.
This is a touching moment as time is given up to the restoration of this monument, and as a statue of an 'old king' it must be something deserving of respect, particularly by the Gondorians. I wonder which King this statue commemorates?

Again, this moment reflects upon real world activity; statues are often torn down after revolutions/wars, and it is considered a great dishonour to deface a memorial or statue - as seen when a Churchill statue was spray painted during a demo in London a few years back. The demonstrators wished to deface the icon, while to others it was an act of disrespect; it is not the statue, not the thing, which is at fault/venerated, but what it represents, and here this is what the Gondorians are doing, reasserting their rule.

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It was near the end of the second day of their march from the Cross-roads that they first met any offer of battle. For a strong force of Orcs and Easterlings attempted to take their leading companies in an ambush; and that was in the very place where Faramir had waylaid the men of Harad, and the road went in a deep cutting through an out-thrust of the eastward hills. But the Captains of the West were well warned by their scouts, skilled men from Henneth Annun led by Mablung; and so the ambush was itself trapped. For horsemen went wide about westward and came up on the flank of the enemy and from behind, and they were destroyed or driven east into the hills.
Did anyone else get the suspicious feeling that some of these assailants might have been here before? Or at least that the tale of what Faramir's men had done there previously has spread amongst the enemy? Either that or this must have been a well known skirmish/ambush point. I noted how well the men led by Mablung knew the lie of the land and were able to stop the attack.

Was this an opportunistic attack? It surprises me that Sauron did not send more forces out to attack the group heading his way; they would have ben incredibly easy to pick off at many stages, and the Nazgul were watching them all the way. this only serves to underline just how much Sauron thought they were walking into a trap. Maybe he thought that the forces of the West were mistaken in believing they had won the whole war at Pelennor and wished to spring his surprise on them, but I don't think even Sauron in his arrogance would underestimate Gandalf's attention to strategy.

It seems, with all the stops to mend statues, blowing horns, sending out lieutenants and the like, that both sides are playing games with one another at this point. Which then leaves you at the end of the chapter, with Pippin possibly dead, wondering where on earth is Frodo?
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Old 09-14-2005, 11:40 AM   #3
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Gandalf shows his strength briefly in taking the tokens from the Mouth of Sauron, but even then, there is no violence on his part. Yet the enemy ambassador fears him, Aragorn, and the Captains! Why?
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Old 09-15-2005, 04:25 AM   #4
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Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.
What happens when Aragorn does this works on two levels. It can simply be seen that Aragorn's presence or hard stare is the thing which makes the Mouth of Sauron quail, but it could also be that Aragorn is using (my old favourite ) osanwe. This 'mental strife' happens on several occasions in LotR, and to view it as osanwe of course depends upon whether you know about/have read the Osanwe Kenta, which I am beginning to think was written by Tolkien to 'explain' these occurences to some extent.

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At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.
I wonder if the description of what the MoS wore reminded anyone else of the uniforms worn by the Guards in Minas Tirith? He wears a 'lofty helm' as they do, minus the wings. And he too is descended from Numenor. That he and Aragorn may share a common ancestry makes their 'struggle' more interesting.

The MoS is obviously a descendant of the Black Numenoreans ('who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans'), which hints that they, like the Gondorians, must have preserved their culture to a certain extent.

This culture 'worshipped' Sauron, rather than Eru which brings me to another thorny idea. It is not obvious that there is any organised religion in Middle-earth and it is not clear if anyone actually 'worshipped' Eru; there is the instance where Faramir's men 'look to the west', but this is not an overtly ritual moment and could easily be in remembrance of Numenor. Yet now we know that some people in Middle-earth do have some kind of religion, except it is of an evil bent, and they worship Sauron. Why do they do this? Because they are 'enamoured of evil knowledge'.

I'm not sure if there is some kind of message in this, but what it does show is how Sauron may have tempted followers to him, through his 'evil knowledge'.

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And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done.
I wonder if this type of torture is any different to what the WK threatens Eowyn with? The MoS seems to have been bestowed (cursed?) with unnatural long life, and though this cannot have been for the same length of time as those lives which the Nazgul have 'lived', I do wonder how this can be. Surely the MoS will lead a tortured existence if his life has been extended? When he says that Frodo 'shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive', it is clear that Sauron knows how to extend life; but there must also be some kind of palliative which means they do not live a tortured existence.

I think one of Sauron's temptations for Men may be that he can extend life, and thus many will flock to his 'side'; perhaps he then keeps them in line with the promise of something which will also ease the suffering they would endure as they entered unnatural lifespans.
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Old 09-16-2005, 03:09 AM   #5
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this might be better discussed in the field of cormallen chapter discussion, but I've always thought Pippin DID die, and was brought back to life through the 'Grace of the Valar' because of his great deeds. I have this view because of Gimli's line to him on the field of Cormallen
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I love you, if only because of the pains you have cost me, which I shall never forget. Nor shall I forget finding you on the hill of the last battle. But for Gimli the Dwarf you would have been lost then. But at least I know now the look of a hobbit's foot, though it be all that can be seen under a heap of bodies. And when I heaved that great carcase off you, I made sure you were dead.
Now, I suppose we could put this down to a mistake by the dwarf, but why would Tolkien write it like this? Why wouldn't he say 'I thought you were dead' for example - Anyway, may resurrect this when the Cormallen chapter comes up, but raised it here as Pippin died at this point. I remember first reading Pippin's demise as a young teenager in my bedroom at home late one night, and falling to sleep balling my eyes out......
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Old 09-16-2005, 06:22 AM   #6
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Essex, I think it's a matter of use of language - "I made sure you were dead" means "I was sure you were dead" - that's how we would say it today. We may often be mistaken even though we are sure of something. I also think the Valar were a bit more exclusive in their use of resurrection - Pippin is no Gandalf; he's not absolutely necessary to the success of the Quest, so there would have been no reason for him to die and come alive again.
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Old 09-16-2005, 07:23 AM   #7
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Most of the quotes I was going to use have been touched upon. I like this chapter especially because of the Mouth of Sauron. Throughout the work thus far, Sauron is an Eye, a character that dominates the story, yet never really seen physically. The author uses this tool to great effect in the story, enhancing the evil doings and strategies of the character of Sauron. But with the MoS, we are placed as close as we ever will be to Sauron himself. Here we have an entity who, unlike a Wraith, is cogent and communicates excellently.

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Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.
Before the Oswane Kenta came to light, I read that passage as some kind of mental \ psycho struggle. After all, the MoS faces and works for Sauron Gorthaur. I dont think a hard stare from anyone would affect him in any way....
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:14 PM   #8
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Not a lot struck me as I finished Book V this time--beyond the thought that that may mean this is the most expendable chapter of Book V, the very one in which the host of the West assaults the Gates if Mordor! In any other book, indeed in the movie renditio , this would be a centerpiece. Here it's a denouement and a cliffhanger, one that's only to be resolved through being overshadowed by the true climax in Book VI.

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Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
This is a touching moment as time is given up to the restoration of this monument, and as a statue of an 'old king' it must be something deserving of respect, particularly by the Gondorians. I wonder which King this statue commemorates.
Given it's location on the road to Minas Ithil, it's just possible it was Isildur. Granted, there's no proof of this at all in the text, it would sharpen Aragorn's point to Sauron to restore it: the Heir of Isildur is come.
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