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Old 09-02-2005, 04:24 PM   #1
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
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Originally Posted by davem
Nature is both 'active' in the form of aiding or thwarting individuals & 'passive' in the sense of providing 'signs', but it is always present, always a participant.

From this point of view Middle earth is also a character in the story, not simply a 'backdrop'. I can't help thinking that this may be linked to the statement in The Sil that Eru sent the Secret Fire to dwell in the heart of the earth. It seems that Middle earth is 'alive' in a real sense - though admittedly not always on the side of 'Good'.
I think one of the most common feelings expressed by readers is how 'alive' the landscape of Middle-earth is to them. I don't know whether the environmental message which was commonly gained from the story is as widely held today as it used to be, but I certainly still get that message strongly. One of the ways it comes through in the story is how holistic this world is - actions are shown to have reactions, such as what results of Saruman's activity, and as such the model of Middle-earth is very close to our own world where a small change can have large consequences.

Whichever way we read, if we see this message or do not, then it can't be denied that the landscape itself plays an enormous role in our appreciation of Tolkien's work. There are several writers who do make incredible use of landscape, almost to the point of characterising it, including Thomas Hardy and Emily Bronte; while they use landscape as a setting for stories and to echo characters (see how the landscape changes with the changing fortunes of Tess Durbeyfield), Tolkien made the change in the landscape part of the story in itself.

This is why I like the idea that the Secret Fire lives at the heart of the earth. It is as though this is the force around which life in this secondary world revolves, it drives it, and it also creates consequences. In our world it seems to be the skies which drive nature, whereas in Tokien it is the Earth itself.
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Old 09-04-2005, 01:40 AM   #2
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Thumbs up The hands of the King

Good catch, Davem
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I'm not sure whether this 'Black Shadow' is the same as the 'Black Breath'. Certainly the effect of the Black Breath on Merry at Bree doesn't seem as overwhelming. The Black Shadow certainly has its origin in the Nazgul in the same way as the Black Breath, but it seems that without the healing skills of Aragorn the Black Breath is not curable. It is something like 'plague', like the Black Death which devastated Europe in the Middle Ages. It seems to affect the body as much as the spirit, & Aragorn's healing seems to work on two levels - he calls the victim back (soul/spirit) & uses the Athelas (body). Whatever it is, it seems it is both a symbol of the overwhelming despair suffered by the enemies of Sauron and a physical weapon of war.
You are quite right, of course. <bows to Davem> The Black Breath and the Black Shadow are related but not the same, and I should have been more accurate when describing Merry's malady. Perhaps the Black Shadow is more severe because it involves actually coming into contact with a Nazgul? Merry and Eowyn were fighting the thing this time, whereas before, Merry was in the presence of the Nazgul, but unaware of it. However the impression from your words are that it could be a weapon controlled consciously by the Nazgul, which is also intriguing. (Although I keep getting a Bad Mental Picture of the Witch King telling the rest of the Nazgul "Put your breath on 'kill'.")

Which brings to mind Tolkien's description of the healing process in this chapter for both the Black Shadow and Faramir's fever, and how much it seems to depend on the touch of Aragorn's hand. Human touch is surprisingly powerful. It can help ease both physical and emotional pain (both of which are affecting Faramir, Eowyn and Merry).

Although I enjoyed the comments of Lalwende regarding the Elessar, I think the idea was that Aragorn himself was the main source of healing, not the stone, or the athelas. Ioreth says "The hands of the king are the hands of a healer." And see how much Aragorn's healing involves the sense of touch.

Quote:
Now Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow. And those that watched felt that some great struggle was going on. For Aragorn's face grew grey with weariness; and ever and anon he called the mane of Faramir, but each time more faintly to their hearing, as if Aragorn himself was removed from them, and walked afar in some dark vale, calling for one that was lost.
Quote:
But he bent and kissed her on the brow, and called her softly, saying: "Eowyn Eomund's daughter, awake! For your enemy has passed away!" She did not stir, but now she began again to breathe deeply. so that her breast rose and fell beneath the white linen of the sheet. Once more Aragorn bruised two leaves of athelas and cast them into steaming water; and he laved her brow with it, and her right arm lying cold and nerveless on the coverlet...."Awake, Eowyn, Lady of Rohan!" said Aragorn again, and he took her right hand in his and felt it warm with life returning.
Quote:
Then Aragorn laid his hand on Merry's head, and passing his hand gently through the brown curls, he touched his eyelids, and called him by name.
While the Elessar might have augmented Aragorn's healing ability, the focus in these passages are on Aragorn using his own voice and hands to bring his patients back. These passages bring up a lot of contemporary ideas: The belief of some Christians in the 'laying on of hands' to heal, interest among medical practicioners in 'theraputic touch' in helping sufferers combat chronic or long-term diseases, even metaphysical claims that human touch can transmit energy between two people.

He uses the athelas as a medicinal plant, probably because having grown up in Rivendell in the care of Elrond, a master of lore and healing, he would have learned the properties of the plant, whereas in the rest of Middle Earth, where the old knowledge had faded away, it was only preserved in the equivalent of nursery rhymes (the Chief Warden's piece of 'doggerel' always reminds me of 'Ring Around the Rosy' and its association with the Black Death). In the eyes of Ioreth, and even the Chief Warden, seeing this "weed" used to heal such severe illness might have seemed like an amazing demonstration of supernatural power on Aragorn's part.
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Old 09-04-2005, 05:07 PM   #3
Hilde Bracegirdle
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Hmm. I formerly thought that each individual smelled in the athelas what was appropriate for them, but then again the others smelled it too. And how could that be? (And one wonders if all would share Ioreth’s thought that it was a ‘wholesome’ fragrance.) It seemly likely that Aragorn must have been some special skill such as directing a specific scent, or else kingsfoil would have been used for more than headaches in Gondor! And I suspect that that specific talent was considerably less common than finding a store of athelas in the city!

Quote:
Frodo has been touched by the weapons of the Enemy,’ said Strider, ‘and there is some poison or evil at work that is beyond my skill to drive out. But do not give up hope Sam!”
This whole subject of WK induced illness (notice the obvious self-conscious sidestepping of the terms Black Breath and Black Shadow), got me rather curious and thinking about the long term effects of Frodo’s encounter, and Aragorn’s attempts at healing him at the time. Granted Frodo was on the receiving end of the blade and a shard of it remained in him, but it is interesting to look at both these and see perhaps what Aragorn might have had in mind when treating Frodo with athelas, or perhaps what he had learned or realized since.


Quote:
When he (Aragorn) had looked upon the faces of the sick and seen their hurts he sighed. ‘Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,’ he said. Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has greater power.’
Beside acknowledging his skill, is Aragorn counting Elrond’s half-human side here? I had to go pull out my pristine ‘newer’ copy of RoTK to check if this ‘race’ hadn’t been changed to ‘races’ in the interval between printings. No change. But then Aragorn has his own drop or two of elven blood, as well. Still this and the comparison to Gandalf is making Aragorn seem somewhat superhuman, if you’ll excuse the term, one giant step better than your typical man of Westernesse, or perhaps closer to its roots.

Another question that I’d like to place before this group concerns Aragorn’s removal of the Star of the North-kingdom from his banner as he set up his camp outside the gate. What does this mean to you? Is it simply an outward sign that Aragorn did not wish to challenge Denethor?
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Old 09-05-2005, 01:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle
Beside acknowledging his skill, is Aragorn counting Elrond’s half-human side here? I had to go pull out my pristine ‘newer’ copy of RoTK to check if this ‘race’ hadn’t been changed to ‘races’ in the interval between printings. No change. But then Aragorn has his own drop or two of elven blood, as well. Still this and the comparison to Gandalf is making Aragorn seem somewhat superhuman, if you’ll excuse the term, one giant step better than your typical man of Westernesse, or perhaps closer to its roots.
I've always assumed that by "race", Aragorn here means the descendents of Luthien- that special breed of part-Men, part-Elves in whom flowed the blood of the Maiar, and who derived special powers from it... Of course, I COULD be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle
Another question that I’d like to place before this group concerns Aragorn’s removal of the Star of the North-kingdom from his banner as he set up his camp outside the gate. What does this mean to you? Is it simply an outward sign that Aragorn did not wish to challenge Denethor?
I've always seen it in the light of humility. Much like not entering the city, Aragorn is doing his best to not stir up any discord. The Elendilmir, after all, was emblematic of the Kingship of Arnor, as it says in a footnote to Appendix A iii:

Quote:
that was also so in Arnor, whose kings were no crown, but bore a single white gem, the Elendilmir, Star of Elendil, bound on their brows with a silver fillet.
As the symbol of the Kingship of Arnor, it is a clear statement about Aragorn's lineage as Heir of Isildur, and an obvious reminder of his claim, through him, to the Throne of Gondor. If Aragorn wished to be appear only "a captain of Rangers, who are unused to cities and houses of stone", he was wise to remove such an obvious sign of royalty.
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Old 09-05-2005, 07:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle
Hmm. I formerly thought that each individual smelled in the athelas what was appropriate for them, but then again the others smelled it too. And how could that be? (And one wonders if all would share Ioreth’s thought that it was a ‘wholesome’ fragrance.) It seemly likely that Aragorn must have been some special skill such as directing a specific scent, or else kingsfoil would have been used for more than headaches in Gondor!
. . . .
Oh, I think you are quite right here, Hilde; each administration of athelas does produce a scent particular to each patient, and those watching Aragorn perform the healing rite apparently smell the scent appropriate to each patient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faramir's healing
Then taking two leaves, he [Aragorn] laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and then he crushed them, and straightaway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy. And then he cast the leaves into the bowls of steaming water that were brought to him, and at once all hearts were lightened. For the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in Spring is itself but a fleeting memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eowyn's healing
. . . as the sweet influence of the herb stole about the chamber it seemed to those who stood by that a keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains hight beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merry's healing
And when the fragrance of athelas stole through the room, like the scent of orchards, and of heather in the sunshine full of bees, suddenly Merry awoke....
Each scent subtly takes on hues and perfumes of each patient's own culture. Faramir's suggests the inheritance of Gondor and its memory of Numenor and beyond. Eowyn's partakes of the bracing cool air of high mountain tops, snow capped all year long and perhaps the northern history of the Rohirrim. And Merry's is The Shire on a warm summer day, lazy with humming warmth. Aragorn/athelas recalls them to their homes. The effect seems consistent in reminding each patient of his home, calling each one back from the dark chill, although that home is unique for each of Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry. They are brought back to themselves and their rightful inheritance you might say.

How can this be? Athelas appeals to the same place in each patient's mind--the olfactory nerves and--I think this is correct--the olfactory bulb--but what it recalls them to is unique for each person. How of course everyone else in the room is swept up in each unique scent is a bit of a mystery. Presumably only Aragorn himself would experience the different aromas. And interestingly, the text does not tell us that others in Merry's rooms have the same sensory experience: the passage is rendered in without their reactions. We have only the omniscient narration.

Perhaps athelas functions like the letters in the Chinese alphabet. The letter is consistent across all the different Chinese dialects, but the word which the symbol represents is different. Such polysemy is particularly important in medieval times, where symbols were widely used in illiterate cultures. Each culture would 'translate' the symbol according to its own system of meaning.
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Old 09-06-2005, 04:31 AM   #6
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
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Originally Posted by Bethberry
Each scent subtly takes on hues and perfumes of each patient's own culture. Faramir's suggests the inheritance of Gondor and its memory of Numenor and beyond. Eowyn's partakes of the bracing cool air of high mountain tops, snow capped all year long and perhaps the northern history of the Rohirrim. And Merry's is The Shire on a warm summer day, lazy with humming warmth. Aragorn/athelas recalls them to their homes.
I like the idea that the scents recall cultural memories in each patient and that they bring each 'home' once more. This would be a fitting cure for the ailments they are suffering, which again are differing. Faramir is suffering from grief while Eowyn and Merry are suffering from 'the Black shadow'.

But one thing stands out for me as not fitting into a cultural pattern and that is one of the effects associated with Eowyn:

Quote:
an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains hight beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam.
This does not seem to fit with any cultural ideas of the Rohirrim. They are not a sea-faring people. In fact, this would fit more with Faramir given the maritime history of the Numenoreans. Strangely, some of the words associated with Faramir actually sound more fitting to Eowyn:

Quote:
the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in Spring is itself but a fleeting memory.
Hmmm...Perhaps the scents evoke not personalities, nor even cultural memories, but dreams, or that which the patient yearns for. It is quite easy to see Eowyn yearning for the 'escape' of empty seashores and the grandeur of mountains; the images used to describe the scent when she is treated are evocative of wide open spaces and freedom. But again, the words used for Faramir have me a little foxed.
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
I like the idea that the scents recall cultural memories in each patient and that they bring each 'home' once more. This would be a fitting cure for the ailments they are suffering, which again are differing. Faramir is suffering from grief while Eowyn and Merry are suffering from 'the Black shadow'.

But one thing stands out for me as not fitting into a cultural pattern and that is one of the effects associated with Eowyn:

Quote:
an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains hight beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam.


This does not seem to fit with any cultural ideas of the Rohirrim. They are not a sea-faring people. In fact, this would fit more with Faramir given the maritime history of the Numenoreans. Strangely, some of the words associated with Faramir actually sound more fitting to Eowyn:

Quote:
the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in Spring is itself but a fleeting memory.


Hmmm...Perhaps the scents evoke not personalities, nor even cultural memories, but dreams, or that which the patient yearns for. It is quite easy to see Eowyn yearning for the 'escape' of empty seashores and the grandeur of mountains; the images used to describe the scent when she is treated are evocative of wide open spaces and freedom. But again, the words used for Faramir have me a little foxed.
Interesting idea, Lal, a dream of something they desire but have never known. Yet would this suit Merry's scent? I'm not sure.

Grief indeed is part of Faramir's wound, yet Aragorn does link Faramir's illness with the Shadow:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolkien via Aragorn
"... How do you read this matter?" [Imrahil]

"Weariness, grief for his father's mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath," said Aragorn. "He is a man of staunch will,for already he had come close under the Shadow before ever he rode to battle on the out-walls. Slowly the dark must have crept on him, even as he found and strove to hold his outpost. Would that I could have been here sooner!"
I think we have to recall that the Rohirrim are not native to Rohan, but are Northmen, come down from the Vales of the Anduin "between the furthest ranges of the Misty Mountains and the northernmost parts of Mirkwood", to quote Appendix A. I read the scent of Eowyn as an ancestral call reaching far back into her people's past. The Northmen were of a different line than the Numenoreans, descending from the Middle peoples rather than the Edain and ultimately of course harkening back to the Hildor, the Aftercomers, who awoke in Hildorien, on the shores of the East Sea. So we have this sea thing again, as a universal symbol.

Interesting that you think the words associated with Faramir would suit Eowyn better, as I absolutely have no sense that they would at all, quite otherwise in fact, for it is the Gondorians who are awash in nostalgic memory somewhat akin to that of the elves. The first sunrise, after all, was in the West, over Aman and Numenor, no?

And so, in Eowyn and Faramir, the two 'strains' of the Hildor, reunite.

But then again, "Dome of Stars" is a name for Osgiliath, where Faramir was wounded. Do we have Aragorn actually acting as a matchmaker here?

Still and all, what are dreams made on? Desire for what would be or what was or a little of both?
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Old 09-06-2005, 10:48 AM   #8
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It would seem that the Nazgul effect a loss of perspective, and their victims despair no longer being grounded in a reality, but lost in their own darkened distorted thoughts. (Sounds a lot like major Depression, doesn't it?) This makes me question whether the scent each patient smelled was not what they yearned for, but rather what might comfort them, whether real or imagined. Perhaps then Aragorn guessed that these were the scents best suited for each. Being knowledgeable in history and well traveled it would seem possible, and I think I might be reiterating the thoughts expressed earlier.

Formendacil, I do like the idea of Aragorn’s humility prompting him to remove the star, but it still strikes me as sad. Perhaps it is intended to, I don’t know. But the mention that Gandalf had to beg him to enter the city, and that he obeyed in order to help was very moving, although the practical side of me was wondering were Andúril was at the time, for it was said that he didn't have any tokens of his claim except the Elessar.

One more thought about Frodo’s illness, if you will indulge me, I am wondering if Aragorn might have sought Elrond out to learn more of healing such maladies as Frodo recovered in Rivendell. If that were the case the hobbit might possibly have helped the king in a round about way, though at the time it was harrowing.
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