LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 07 - The Pyre of Denethor

[Alphaelin]

The Squatter of Amon Rudh said

I'm of the opinion that a farcical aquatic ceremony is the only legitimate means of conferring true authority.

Right, you can't go around saying you're king just because some watery tart threw a sword at you. <pausing for fond contemplation of 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail'>

Okay, to get back on topic: I have always thought that Gandalf was able to take up authority in Gondor after the battle of Pelenor Fields simply because he was on the spot and started taking care of things that needed to done, starting with sending Faramir to the Houses of Healing. And really, there aren't any other candidates available right after the battle: Denethor, dead; Faramir, at death's door; Prince Imrahil, busy on the battlefield plus he's not actually Gondorian -- he's part of the Steward's family by marriage; Aragorn, not willing to take on the leadership of the city officially; Eomer, certainly not Gondorian and busy with his own people. Of course, Gandalf isn't Gondorian either, but he is at least sane, healthy and not as tired as the rest of the leadership is after fighting for most of the last 24 hours.

As Gandalf isn't making a bid for permanent power and is trying to get things under control, why not let him run things for awhile?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

'Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death.’

‘So be it,’ said Faramir.

'So be it!’ cried Denethor. ‘But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father and all of your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone.’

From 'The Siege of Gondor’, The Return of the King

This passage from a chapter we earlier read, haunts me when reading the ‘The Pyre of Denethor’. And brings two or maybe three impressions. Besides the conversion dissolving into being a rather a textbook example fathering techniques to avoid a short sentence later, this I think shows not only Denethor judgment of his son, but his own worry. He is worried that Faramir’s gentleness will be repaid in death, he expects it. I think that this is one reason why he was drawn to Boromir, for he was more bold than gentle, and also why Denthor was so willing to believe Faramir was not going to recover. What he feared was coming true despite his best effort. And ironically Denethor was bringing about this end himself with a mad sort of tenderness.

It was also interesting to note that he mentions that his son’s behavior should cause not only the death of his people but of his father also. Is this the logic of Denethor as he orders the pyre constructed? For gentle Faramir he believes is dying, and his people also are dying, must Denethor therefore die too?

The emphasis in this chapter for me is how the will of Sauron is bring carried out in the stronghold though Denethor. I doubt that a more effective agent could have been used, even spies or moles in the city would not have had this deeply felt effect! I know that I am no doubt in the minority, but I have always liked Denethor, though I despised the way he treated his sons. It is tragic how such a bright man, unwittingly, was so used without realizing it. Even in the end he seems to think his death is in defiance, when it is in reality a victory for the Dark Lord. How much more dispiriting to the people to have a leader kill himself, then to die fighting like Theoden. And what a contrast between what is happening in the lower city where the enemy is recognisible, to what is happening at the top levels where the enemy's intent is disguised and it's protective armor is the oath of service the the city and its Lord.

As for Gandalf’s decision to help Faramir, I believe there is a clue back in the chapter ‘Minas Tirith’

Gandalf is speaking:
‘But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.

I submit that Gandalf viewed Faramir a such a one.

[Lhunardawen]

Of Pippin's plea for Gandalf to save Faramir, the wizard had this to say:

'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this.'

These words reminded me of a not-so-similar situation that involved Aragorn, a few chapters before:

'I have no help to send, therefore I must go myself,' said Aragorn. 'But there is only one way through the mountains that will bring me to the coastlands before all is lost. That is the Paths of the Dead.'

They both were the only persons who could somehow amend their respective situations, and their decisions have their respective downsides. But they sensed the urgency and were willing to lay aside any doubts or inhibitions - in Aragorn's case maybe losing his own life, and with Gandalf, losing someone else's.

As for evil and sorrow, these others felt in response to Aragorn. The latter was expressed by Éomer and Théoden...

'Alas! Aragorn my friend!' said Éomer. 'I had hoped that we should ride to war together; but if you seek the Paths of the Dead, then our parting is come, and it is little likely that we shall ever meet again under the Sun.'

'You will do as you will, my lord Aragorn,' said Théoden. 'It is your doom, maybe, to tread strange paths that others dare not. This parting grieves me, and my strength is lessened by it; but now I must take the mountain-roads and delay no longer. Farewell!'

...and the former by his companion, Gimli.

'The Paths of the Dead!' said Gimli. 'It is a fell name, and little to the liking to the Men of Rohan, as I saw. Can the living use such a road and not perish?'

Later Pippin and Gandalf, on Shadowfax, made their way to where the Steward is.

They passed on; and as they climbed and drew near to the Citadel they felt the wind blowing in their faces, and they caught the glimmer of morning far away, a light growing in the southern sky. But it brought little hope to them, not knowing what evil lay before them.

It is interesting that in the previous chapter (or the one before it?) Merry and Théoden's observations and their corresponding emotions completely mirrored this scene. They were initially filled with dread, fearing the worst as they found that they had arrived too late. But later on, Merry felt the wind on his face; they saw the same light glimmering and took great hope in the same morning that lay beyong them.

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger.

I experience almost everyday having to squint my eyes upon waking up; the sudden bright light just feels so painful after 'seeing darkness' for so long as I slept. The pupils of the eyes, which are involuntarily dilated in the dark to allow the passage of more light (not sure if this applies in sleep, though) cannot contract rapidly enough to control the amount of light that enters the eyes. Thus, for a moment, I seem to be blinded, and would have to wait until my pupils are adjusted.

In Denethor's case here, though, he seemed to be in perpetual blindness. It's as if his eyes have never seen light ever since Boromir died. Gandalf came and tried to 'enlighten' him, even giving his 'eyes' a chance to 'readjust' to his light. But sadly, Denethor was too deep into his own darkness that he shunned the light - and it was this darkness that brought him to his death.

'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil.'

Tapos papagalitan mo si Faramir?

Oops. I just found it ironic that Denethor said those words after saying these to Faramir in the Siege chapter:

'I know you well. Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death.'

Do these explain Denethor's less preference for Faramir?

[Firefoot]

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."

Several people have commented on this passage; I'd like to compare it to another: one of Faramir's -

"For myself," said Faramir, "I would see the White Treee in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens (...)"

We are told several times how similar Faramir and Denethor are, and I think this is a very good example. Both are shown to be idealists, and both want things to be as they were and not as they are. This is probably the end of the similarities, though, and probably the reason for strife between the two of them. Denethor is very selfish; he looks at things in terms of himself. A good example is how he seems to view Gondor in terms of himself, as davem as stated so many times. This selfishness turns those three things he lists (neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated) from honorable sounding things to the corrupted rantings of a man in despair. Just to look at the words, they seem to be quite reasonable and very idealistic, even honourable. However, Denethor means these things in terms of himself: to him, the diminishing on life is the life in which a king not a steward rules; he wants all the love of his son, his knights, and "his" country to belong only to him; and he wants all the honor to remain steadfast to him. If life can't be as it was, he doesn't want there to be any life at all. Faramir, on the other hand, looks further back than just the stewards. He wants things to be as they were in the days of Numenor, or, barring that, the days of the kings. Instead of viewing his ideals from the perspective of himself, he sees his city in the days of glory, and desires peace under the rule of a king. Denethor, who only wants power for himself, cannot understand this.

Could Denethor still have changed his mind and aided his city and people, and what effect could that have had on the outcome of the battle?

Given Denethor's personality, I'm not sure that he could. He had built himself a wall of selfishness and pride so high that I'm not sure that he would have been able to knock it down. It would have required an immense change of heart for Denethor to go out and aid his people. Cf.:

"He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."

"Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy."

I don't doubt that Denethor would see the possibility of going out to lead his troops as going "because Gandalf told him to."

"I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart... I will not bow to such a one."

Then there's all that he says about fighting being in vain... Denethor is very deep in, and I honestly don't think that he could go out to fight if he wanted to, and he certainly won't after Gandalf has told him to.

Of brief interest is the use of fire - from the chapter "Minas Tirith:"

and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.

I'd say that this strain bursts into flame in this chapter... both figuratively and literally.

Sauron's influence is most sharply felt in divisiveness, even to the point of killing friends instead of foes. What is your opinion on Beregond's role in this unhappy event? Should he have acted differently?

I think that Beregond had one of the hardest roles in this chapter, if not the hardest. He had not been released from his post as Pippin had, and he was not allowed to leave it. Following orders is a large part of the military and those who don't can be punished severely. He has a choice: does he follow his orders, leaving Faramir to his death, or does he disobey in hopes of saving Faramir, the captain whom he loves? Denethor has proven that he no longer has the right to rule, and I think that Beregond can hardly be blamed for leaving his post. Ultimately, he makes the best choice that he probably could have in this situation and does what he thinks is right. A bible verse comes to mind: in Acts, the apostles say, "We must obey God rather than men." While there is not a god in question here, Beregond has to obey either what he thinks is right or what Denethor (indirectly) has ordered him to do. As for killing the porter, Beregond has to make another extremely difficult choice: either the porter dies and Faramir (could) live, or the porter lives and Faramir does die. This is not a fair choice for Beregond to make; it should not be up to him to decide whether Faramir's or the porter's life is "more valuable," which is in essence what he has to do. For Faramir to live, the porter had to die. The same goes for the servants that he killed, except that by this time he knew that Faramir was still alive. What it came down to was Beregond's loyalties, and those were to Faramir and what he considered right. There were no real right choices to make, but he did the best he could in a difficult situation.

[Lhunardawen]

I was listening in my second 'school' last night to a lecture on the proper way to give correction. The main points included the use of wisdom (the example given was that of the prophet Nathan telling a parable to convict King David of murdering Uriah and getting his wife, Bathsheba, for himself - from 1 (or 2?) Samuel), gentleness, and love. Naturally I thought of Gandalf, how he dealt with Denethor in the final days of his life. Not that I'm accusing Gandalf, but can we say that he erred in the way he rebuked Denethor's faults? And going further, can we even say he is partly responsible for the Steward's death?

Feel free to stone me for thinking such.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Alphaelin

Okay, to get back on topic: I have always thought that Gandalf was able to take up authority in Gondor after the battle of Pelenor Fields simply because he was on the spot and started taking care of things that needed to done, starting with sending Faramir to the Houses of Healing. And really, there aren't any other candidates available right after the battle: Denethor, dead; Faramir, at death's door; Prince Imrahil, busy on the battlefield plus he's not actually Gondorian -- he's part of the Steward's family by marriage; Aragorn, not willing to take on the leadership of the city officially; Eomer, certainly not Gondorian and busy with his own people. Of course, Gandalf isn't Gondorian either, but he is at least sane, healthy and not as tired as the rest of the leadership is after fighting for most of the last 24 hours.

As Gandalf isn't making a bid for permanent power and is trying to get things under control, why not let him run things for awhile?

I'm not challenging Gandalf's authority; I'm not saying he shouldn't 'run things for awhile'. I am rather more interested in how Tolkien depicts the development of Gandalf's authority.

For the record, the scene I referred to between Imrahil and Gandalf occurs before Denethor's death. Imrahil does not know what occurs in the dark back room of the Steward's rule. While we readers thoroughly no doubt concur with Gandalf doing something, how is it that Tolkien has characters, who are not privy to our knowledge courtesy the narration's omniscience, submit to Gandalf?

What makes intellectual domination possible? What forces spark Imrahil's imagination and those of others to submit to Gandalf's authority? Is it simply a matter of 'weaker' characters submitting to someone who acts and speaks as if he knows what's going on? It is a will to find some order in the chaos?

I suppose I am asking because I am very intrigued by the differences between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White. We know, we are told, that Gandalf has been given carte blanche to deploy all his powers after he returns from his fight with the balrog. But what does this mean? Can he use his words and eloquence the way Saruman does? So how do those who willingly submit know that he is right? How is his use of his powers different from the way that, say, Saruman deployed his abilities? Is it simply that by definition Gandalf is one of the good guys and so he can establish his dominion--I won't say domination--without question? Or does the side of good use different strategies to produce choice among followers?

This question no doubt requires reference to far more than this scene in this chapter, but I find it interesting. In part, it is answered by the way Gandalf proceeds in "The Last Debate", but that occurs after this scene with Imrahil.

[the phantom]

how is it that Tolkien has characters, who are not privy to our knowledge courtesy the narration's omniscience, submit to Gandalf?

Perhaps those who are the most noble and good can somehow sense the nobility and goodness of Gandalf?

Faramir is without a doubt the purest, if you get what I mean, of the Steward's household (Denethor, Boromir, Faramir), and notice that he is the one who is accused of being a "wizard's pupil".

Also, what about the hobbits of the Shire? You don't see Ted Sandyman or Lotho Baggins being chummy with Gandalf, do you? No, you see Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin following him- the best of the hobbits.

It seems to me that Gandalf (particularly Gandalf the White) has only a thin veil over his nature, which is undoubtedly "good", which means that his goodness can be sensed by anyone with a halfway perceptive heart and mind. Therefore, those who are both good and perceptive are likely to follow him without much hesitation.

To see how this works, simply look at the way the hobbits react to Aragorn when they first meet him and don't know if they should trust him. Which hobbit is the first to give Aragorn the benefit of the doubt? Frodo- the most perceptive of the hobbits. Frodo senses Aragorn's goodness. Frodo said this to Aragorn-

'I believed that you were a friend before the letter came,' he said, 'or at least I wanted to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would- well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'

Eomer also senses Aragorn's nature when he first meets him. Like Frodo, he trusts Aragorn enough to essentially place his life in Aragorn's hands. He even says it-

In this I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the keeping of your good faith. Do not fail.

Eomer also liked Gandalf. When he learned of his death he said this-

'That is heavy tidings,' said Eomer. 'At least to me, and to many; though not to all, as you may find, if you come to the king.'

As you can see, certain characters, such as Eomer and Frodo, just know who to trust. It must be a result of them perceiving the true nature of others.

In Gandalf's case, his true nature is probably less hidden than most. He is the white rider, sent by the Valar and then sent back by Eru himself! He is the very symbol of opposition to Sauron. Because of this, I'm not at all surprised that Sauron's opponents find it easy to take orders from Gandalf.

[Guinevere]

A very late afterthought to this discussion on what authority Gandalf could take command in Minas Tirith:
Well, it was Denethor himself who "authorized" him, in a way!
In "the Siege of Gondor", after Faramir had been brought back wounded and unconscious and Denethor was sitting at his bed:

Men came to the door crying for the Lord of the City.
"Nay, I will not come down," he said. "I must stay beside my son. He might still speak before the end. But that is near. Follow whom you will, even the Grey Fool, though his hope has failed. Here I stay."
So it was that Gandalf took command of the defence of the City of Gondor.
Wherever he came, men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory.

Why shouldn't they feel it right to follow him, if he had that rousing influence on people! Besides, he went about the City accompanied by the Prince of Dol Amroth.

I must say, I wondered too about Denethor's servants - that they would obey him so blindly, to the degree of actually helping to kill him and Faramir ! ( "Kadavergehorsam" this is called in German) Can't understand the doorwarden either, who would rather fight to the last than let Beregond- who after all was not an enemy! pass.

[davem]

Found a couple of mentions of staff-breaking by a Steward (Worcester) in Shakespeare (Richard II)

GREEN
We have: whereupon the Earl of Worcester
Hath broke his staff, resign'd his stewardship,
And all the household servants fled with him
To Bolingbroke.

&

HENRY PERCY

No, my good Lord; he hath forsook the court,
Broken his staff of office and dispersed
The household of the king.

For what it's worth.... Certainly it seems that Tolkien is tapping a primary world tradition in having Denethor break his staff when he surrenders his office.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I suppose I am asking because I am very intrigued by the differences between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White. We know, we are told, that Gandalf has been given carte blanche to deploy all his powers after he returns from his fight with the balrog. But what does this mean? Can he use his words and eloquence the way Saruman does? So how do those who willingly submit know that he is right? How is his use of his powers different from the way that, say, Saruman deployed his abilities? Is it simply that by definition Gandalf is one of the good guys and so he can establish his dominion--I won't say domination--without question?

Well, to answer your second question: yes, yes he can, provided that the White Wizard does not overstep the bounds set by the Valar over all the Istari: not to use Power against the Dark Lord in the East, and not to dominate Elves nor Men.

Through the use of this Power, the Voice, Saruman swayed men to his dominion, such as the men of Dunland who rose up against the Rohirrim at the Battle of the Hornburg. This is because Saruman wanted Domination, and it is for this reason that he was deposed by Gandalf, being stripped of staff and color. However, Gandalf, through the use of the White Voice, if you will, is not seeking dominion, or Domination, of the minds of Men or Halflings: he wishes for Minas Tirith to be held against the forces of the Enemy. This is why Gandalf deserves this carte blanche: he is not taken by the desires which have long gnawed at the heart of Saruman, and this is why he was even allowed to come back from the battle with the Balrog.

This all being said, there is no place where any of those who listen to the counsels of Gandalf remark that they feel they are being swayed by leechcraft, except perhaps Theoden, when he is healed by Gandalf. This could be because they are not aware of his spellwork, as they were when they had the parley with Saruman at Isengard. However, I myself doubt this. It is not in Gandalf's character (so far as we the reader know) to manipulate maliciously.


((This is fun! I might come back and read with youse more often. ))

[Bêthberry]

Some people are picking up very old threads. Does that necessitate reading them over again to see what's what?

Guinevere's quote is excellent for pointing out the significant effect of Gandalf's presence, the inspiring sense of hope. It is a very Obama-like situation. And Strongbow--welcome to the Downs--will your posts be as a good libation?--is spot on that Gandalf does not operate to gain power for himself.

Yet in so many other situations Gandalf did not inspire hope, but suspicion. What changed to bring hope into Gandy's presence here and now at the Seige?

by the by, it is interesting to note that Denethor does not seem to acknowledge the White in Gandalf, as Denethor calls him the Grey Fool.

[Galadriel55]

Does it not bother anyone else that every time there is some surprise revelation Gandalf goes "Oh yeah, I knew that for a long time!". I think the only one he admitted to not knowing or suspecting was the Balrog. It bothers me, like he has to show that he knows best even though he didn't do anything about it when there was still a chance to prevent something. Denethor's palantir gazing was a topic of rumour as far as Rohan, though no one actually suspected a palantir (except know-it-all Gandalf of course). So if Gandalf thought this was the source of Denethor's knowledge and also his madness, could he have not used his suspicion to convince Denethor he is not all-knowing and all-powerful? Convince him that Gandalf can know something too, and through his own cleverness rather than a magic item? It's debatable if Denethor could have been scared or humbled into sanity or at least submission, but could Gandalf have at least tried? I'm not making a case against Gandalf here, but it just bugs me that - once again - he claims he suspected the thing after it happens.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Does it not bother anyone else that every time there is some surprise revelation Gandalf goes "Oh yeah, I knew that for a long time!". I think the only one he admitted to not knowing or suspecting was the Balrog. It bothers me, like he has to show that he knows best even though he didn't do anything about it when there was still a chance to prevent something. Denethor's palantir gazing was a topic of rumour as far as Rohan, though no one actually suspected a palantir (except know-it-all Gandalf of course).

Heh, that's actually something I like about Gandalf's personality (maybe because in my younger days I affected the same trait on occasion ).

In The Hobbit there's that line about Gandalf not minding explaining his cleverness more than once, and that's just the way he rolls, so to speak. I cut him some slack: he's an immortal being wearing a mortal form and subject to bodily constraints; he has to use guile and persuasion (with the very limited expression of raw power) to induce lesser beings more concerned with their own problems to pay attention to Sauron; and he also must deal tactfully with the big egos who think they should be the leaders against Sauron's menace. Maybe pointing out when he's right is an effort to put across the idea of "See? I was right again. When will you bloody listen to me?"

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So if Gandalf thought this was the source of Denethor's knowledge and also his madness, could he have not used his suspicion to convince Denethor he is not all-knowing and all-powerful? Convince him that Gandalf can know something too, and through his own cleverness rather than a magic item? It's debatable if Denethor could have been scared or humbled into sanity or at least submission, but could Gandalf have at least tried? I'm not making a case against Gandalf here, but it just bugs me that - once again - he claims he suspected the thing after it happens.

Gandalf seems particularly rankled by Denethor's arrogant assumption that he's pulling a fast one on everyone, friends and enemies alike, with too much trust in his own abilities and authority. I'm pretty sure Gandalf overtly telling Denethor he knew about the Stone would have been counterproductive, since D was already suspicious of Gandalf and his motives, and the death of Boromir didn't exactly raise Gandalf's status with him either.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Heh, that's actually something I like about Gandalf's personality (maybe because in my younger days I affected the same trait on occasion ).

I'm the opposite, I guess. Knowing something bad that you can prevent and not speaking up or doing anything about it just frustrates me so much. "Sorry your pie burned. I could tell it was burning in the oven for an hour now because of the smell and smoke and fire alarms, but I was not 100% sure and I preferred you to discover it for yourself." Gee thanks.

I do agree that there probably wasn't much Gandalf could reasonably have achieved with Denethor even if he tried. It's more the know-it-all attitude after the thing happened that annoys me.