Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Folwren]

I can't grasp the difficulty in this. What part of the books are you people who think there are wings taking off of? Where are wings mentioned when Balrogs are mentioned other than in the LotR? Tell me where to look them up, look them up yourself, consider the way Tolkien writes about the Balrogs and study the way he mentions his wings. Obviously there have to be other places than in The Bridge of Khazad-dum where wings on Balrogs are mentioned or else this wouldn't be such a difficult problem.

My lack of knowledge of his other books bother me greatly.

- Folwren

[the guy who be short]

I've always imagined the (non-existant) Balrog wings to be leathery. Certainly they are portrayed so.

Now, Balrogs are creatures of fire and shadow. Leather wings would simply burn off. Ergo, Balrogs don't have wings. Well, not leathery ones.

Either that or they're fireproof, and Balrogs don't have nerves.

[Mister Underhill]

oblo -- fair point. The bottom line is that we can't draw any definitive conclusions about the sizes of various rooms, doorways, chambers, or wingspans, so arguments which claim that "the Balrog couldn't fit in there if it had wings" just don't hold water.

P.S. -- I was a little shaken up by that Marcus Aurelius quote. I was going to counter with a Moe Howard quotation, "You moron!" -- but since the author of the article doesn't post here, I didn't bother checking my sources.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I can't grasp the difficulty in this. What part of the books are you people who think there are wings taking off of? Where are wings mentioned when Balrogs are mentioned other than in the LotR? Tell me where to look them up, look them up yourself, consider the way Tolkien writes about the Balrogs and study the way he mentions his wings. Obviously there have to be other places than in The Bridge of Khazad-dum where wings on Balrogs are mentioned or else this wouldn't be such a difficult problem.

My lack of knowledge of his other books bother me greatly.

- Folwren

There isn't a single mention of Balrogs having wings in the whole of the Legendarium (not even in LotR, if you read what Tolkien actually said). On the other hand, he clearly states that The Prancing Pony had wings, so I was wondering if anyone could work out how that flew......

[Mister Underhill]

(not even in LotR, if you read what Tolkien actually said)

Of course you have to take this with a grain of salt coming from the man who doesn't consider The Hobbit to be a Middle-earth book.

[davem]

Of course you have to take this with a grain of salt coming from the man who doesn't consider The Hobbit to be a Middle-earth book.

We're not talking about TH here. And I notice again that you ignore the fact that I've made a convincing argument.

The Prancing Pony is clearly stated to have wings. Therefore, by your literalist reading of the text, it must have been able to fly.

[Mister Underhill]

Actually I once again find your argument unconvincing: "wing: 6 : a part or feature usually projecting from and subordinate to the main or central part <the servants' wing of the mansion>".

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fowlren

I can't grasp the difficulty in this. What part of the books are you people who think there are wings taking off of? Where are wings mentioned when Balrogs are mentioned other than in the LotR?

The point is that the description of the Balrog can be (and has been) interpreted by many readers as portraying a winged Balrog. Moreover a significant number of people (even those who are now non-wingers) seem to have imagined a winged Balrog when they first read the book. Most artists portray a winged Balrog. So I would answer your question with another question: Where does it state conclusively in any of Tolkien's works that Balrogs did not have wings?

As for references to Balrogs other than Durin's Bane, is there any particular reason to conclude that different Balrogs did not take slightly different physical forms?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

"Difficile est saturam non scribere" - Juvenal.

Actually I once again find your argument unconvincing: "wing: 6 : a part or feature usually projecting from and subordinate to the main or central part <the servants' wing of the mansion>".

So in actual fact, the shadow of Durin's Bane spread out like two vast subordinate architectural components, which suggests that Tolkien imagined it to look something like the Ashmolean Museum. No wonder the poor creature couldn't fly.

Like Estelyn, I've never really thought much about the balrog wings issue. I've always assumed that the reference to 'its wings' in The Bridge of Khazad-dûm is simply the result of a lapse in concentration. Thinking that the audience will understand that he's still talking about some amorphous shadowy projection, Tolkien then turns his wing simile into a metaphor, forgetting that ambiguity is the mother of contention. Without this slip I doubt that the passage in the appendices would have been read as anything but an example of Tolkien's fondness for the fast-disappearing use of 'fly' to mean 'flee' which Child pointed out earlier in the thread. In other words: no, Durin's Bane at least had only a threatening shadow which spread out like wings.

So much for my opinion, which is nothing new or original, nor particularly worth posting on its own. What I do have to relate is that tonight, in a fit of insanity, I decided to look at the earlier drafts of The Bridge of Khazad-dûm in The Treason of Isengard to see if they confirmed my theory. I expect that what follows has probably been said more than once before as well, but not, I think, in this thread.

Christopher Tolkien mentions three drafts prior to the published version. The earliest of these, 'A', has:

The creature made no reply, but standing up tall so that it loomed above the wizard it strode forward and smote him.

A pencilled annotation to this manuscript reads "Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its form could not be plainly discerned. It felt larger than it looked."

The 'B' version has the Balrog stand facing Gandalf, but still makes no mention of wings. These enter the passage in the third draft, which has "...the Balrog halted facing him and the shadow about him reached out like great wings."

Christopher Tolkien notes that the 'him' here is Gandalf, since the Balrog is always referred to as 'it'. The contentious literal reference to 'its wings' enters the text in the final version only, and I think that the development of Tolkien's thinking is quite clear: the Balrog must somehow feel greater than it actually is; it does so through the use of shadow; the shadow spreads like wings. When writing the final version, Tolkien made an understandable mistake in thinking that it would be a really good idea to refer to this shadow directly as a set of wings, possibly because this identifies it as something which is definitely a part of the Balrog and under its control. That this was not one of his better ideas is borne out by the last fifty years of discussion.

Of course it's always possible that this is all an obscure joke at the expense of obsessive compulsives. Perhaps HoME XXXI will have something to say on the subject: "My father's earliest typescript of this passage has finally come to light beneath a floorboard at our old house in Northmoor Road. Beside the description of the Balrog as written in version 'C', he has written hastily in pencil: 'Make Balrog appear to have and not have wings. Cf. angels on pin-head. Keep them talking forever."

[Folwren]

My question is answered. I remain stead fast in my opinion of non-winged Balrogs.

There are more than one definition of 'wing' in the Webster Dictionary of the English Language. Look it up. Mister Underhill had the awesome idea of doing so without being told and giving you the 6th definition that explained the winged Prancing Pony.

I've said so before, and I'll say so again, with Tolkien being the writer and English major and teacher that he was, he wouldn't write one sentence in the LotR in which the Shadow is his subject and the Wing his adjective and intend for a Balrog to have wings. And if he did, than C.S. Lewis, who read all of his stuff and critiqued a lot of it (I don't know if he was his editor for the LotR) would have caught it likewise.

Don't have time to explain myself any more.

-Folwren