Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Mister Underhill]

There are so many unfounded assumptions in that article that it would take a post of a similar length to rebut them all -- "narrow" as an essential part of the definition of chasm? And even so, who says the bridge spans the chasm's width, and not its length? "Minimally, for something to be called narrow its length must be at least twice its width." Huh? According to who? His deductions about the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul are pure invention. One can wedge a door that's thirty feet wide and thirty feet tall as easily as one that's five by five. Tolkien's talking about wedging, not barring, as occurs in the movie.

Fortunately, SPM has already rebutted the only faulty assumptions that really need to be addressed.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

There are so many unfounded assumptions in that article that it would take a post of a similar length to rebut them all -- "narrow" as an essential part of the definition of chasm? And even so, who says the bridge spans the chasm's width, and not its length? "Minimally, for something to be called narrow its length must be at least twice its width." Huh? According to who? His deductions about the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul are pure invention. One can wedge a door that's thirty feet wide and thirty feet tall as easily as one that's five by five. Tolkien's talking about wedging, not barring, as occurs in the movie.

Fortunately, SPM has already rebutted the only faulty assumptions that really need to be addressed.

Dear Mister Underhill, I think you're missing the most important and convincing point in the article: he quoted Marcus Aurelius.

I do think he envisions a much larger room than I ever did. Still, we can make reasonable assumptions about how wide the room is based on the fact that there were two rows of mighty columns upholding the roof. It seems very unlikely that the room was a mere 30 feet wide, and that these columns were only a couple feet in diameter and stood only 5 feet or so from each wall and each other.

[Folwren]

I can't grasp the difficulty in this. What part of the books are you people who think there are wings taking off of? Where are wings mentioned when Balrogs are mentioned other than in the LotR? Tell me where to look them up, look them up yourself, consider the way Tolkien writes about the Balrogs and study the way he mentions his wings. Obviously there have to be other places than in The Bridge of Khazad-dum where wings on Balrogs are mentioned or else this wouldn't be such a difficult problem.

My lack of knowledge of his other books bother me greatly.

- Folwren

[the guy who be short]

I've always imagined the (non-existant) Balrog wings to be leathery. Certainly they are portrayed so.

Now, Balrogs are creatures of fire and shadow. Leather wings would simply burn off. Ergo, Balrogs don't have wings. Well, not leathery ones.

Either that or they're fireproof, and Balrogs don't have nerves.

[Mister Underhill]

oblo -- fair point. The bottom line is that we can't draw any definitive conclusions about the sizes of various rooms, doorways, chambers, or wingspans, so arguments which claim that "the Balrog couldn't fit in there if it had wings" just don't hold water.

P.S. -- I was a little shaken up by that Marcus Aurelius quote. I was going to counter with a Moe Howard quotation, "You moron!" -- but since the author of the article doesn't post here, I didn't bother checking my sources.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I can't grasp the difficulty in this. What part of the books are you people who think there are wings taking off of? Where are wings mentioned when Balrogs are mentioned other than in the LotR? Tell me where to look them up, look them up yourself, consider the way Tolkien writes about the Balrogs and study the way he mentions his wings. Obviously there have to be other places than in The Bridge of Khazad-dum where wings on Balrogs are mentioned or else this wouldn't be such a difficult problem.

My lack of knowledge of his other books bother me greatly.

- Folwren

There isn't a single mention of Balrogs having wings in the whole of the Legendarium (not even in LotR, if you read what Tolkien actually said). On the other hand, he clearly states that The Prancing Pony had wings, so I was wondering if anyone could work out how that flew......

[Mister Underhill]

(not even in LotR, if you read what Tolkien actually said)

Of course you have to take this with a grain of salt coming from the man who doesn't consider The Hobbit to be a Middle-earth book.

[davem]

Of course you have to take this with a grain of salt coming from the man who doesn't consider The Hobbit to be a Middle-earth book.

We're not talking about TH here. And I notice again that you ignore the fact that I've made a convincing argument.

The Prancing Pony is clearly stated to have wings. Therefore, by your literalist reading of the text, it must have been able to fly.

[Mister Underhill]

Actually I once again find your argument unconvincing: "wing: 6 : a part or feature usually projecting from and subordinate to the main or central part <the servants' wing of the mansion>".