Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Kuruharan]

The problem with this idea is that when somebody is capable of shape-shifting we know and there is no doubt about it. A shape-shifting Balrog doesn't have any textual support (at least that I can remember off the top of my head).

Hint: The only real problem with the belief that Balrogs don't have wings is how they managed to get to Lammoth from Angband quickly enough to save Morgoth. I admit I find this to be a bit difficult, but I find the problems of space and movement underground to be the decisive factor in the matter.

[HerenIstarion]

My impression is, the winged balrog simply looks cooler, and thus pro-winger camp does not want to give up on such a sweet dude

Giving a little twist to the thread here, let me invite you to follow the link of Hookbill the Goomba's current signature: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ba/Balrogs.jpg

Nice joke, to my liking, but looking at it I've notices also a strange thing dangling behind both figurines, suspiciously resembling no less than a tail!

Wings? Legs? Nope - tail!

I suppose it's tied up with wonderfully wrong 'winged theory' - as flying creature presumably would require some kind of tail for steering, but, gawks, whoever heard about a tail on a balrog? Hang that PJ (not an appeal I usually issue, but that was outrageous! )

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok lets think this through morgoth mocked life right?

Orc=elves
trolls=ents
balrogs=???dragons possibly

if this is true we can assume balrogs have wings on the basis that dragons(most notibly smaug) had wings and as for wing folding that depepends on the wing strutcure it could indeed fold quite tiughtly though i do agree that is a dangerous blow to the wing theory however considering a balrog flight is quitew possible with wings thinking it through most biords ride on air current which has to do with hot air and such doesnt the bakrid provide its own rising heat to glide upon.

Scientificly speaking were looking at raptor like wings made for gliding not so much flapping which would make them more leathery and in fact thinner because there would be less need for muscle in the wing which in turn would make it easier for the wings to be folded into smaller area of space.

Another thing however against wings is the fact that balrogs live underground(Im talking moria if you know more about other balrog locals please tell me) and if all balrogs were to live mainly underground isnt it in fact useless to form with wings.

However no conclusion ever will be reached I myself believe balrogs have wings.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Ok lets think this through morgoth mocked life right?

Morgoth did not create Balrogs ...

[Morsul the Dark]

true but one would assume he had a hand in shaping them

edit:this isnt cryptic clues you dnt have to continuously shoot me down just kidding

I thought he did create them but at any rate wouldn't he have helped shape balrogs?

[Kuruharan]

balrogs=???dragons possibly

Uhh...no. Whatever his reasons in corrupting balrogs, mocking dragons were not among them because Morgoth had not conceived of breeding/corrupting dragons yet.

as for wing folding that depepends on the wing strutcure it could indeed fold quite tiughtly though i do agree that is a dangerous blow to the wing theory however considering a balrog flight is quitew possible with wings thinking it through most biords ride on air current which has to do with hot air and such doesnt the bakrid provide its own rising heat to glide upon.

Scientificly speaking were looking at raptor like wings made for gliding not so much flapping which would make them more leathery and in fact thinner because there would be less need for muscle in the wing which in turn would make it easier for the wings to be folded into smaller area of space.

The thickness of the material is not so much the problem. It is the length of the wings that causes the issues. In fact, thinner wings would only compound the problem because the more easily the wings fold together the longer the wings will be vertically (making it harder to get through doors) rather than distributing some of the wings horizontally.

[Morsul the Dark]

Why would easier folding make them longer? thats a confusing argument the easier they fold they smaller space they would fold into...let me demonstrate take a piece of paper fold in in half its still pretty big fold it though four times when expanded same space when retracted smaller...i dont want to sound condesending it just the only way i could think of to explain my point....why would easier folding make them longer?

I mean even this is a possible(however much less likely) idea th4e fact that the balrogs smoke becomes wings...if they are indeed magical and can make weapons from fire(sword whip) whos to say they can't form wings with smoke? that way when not needed they disapate and voila wingless balrog like i said this second theory is less likely...much less likely

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I've never seen a good response to these points. Usually when they are brought up the pro-wingers start humming and hawing and try to change the subject.

With all due respect, I've never been much impressed by these arguments. They rely on conjecture about so many things.

For starters, how can you draw anatomical conclusions regarding lift and mass about a creature that exudes flame and shadow, even if we did have anything more than the barest of hints as to its proportions (how tall is a "great height"?)?

The Chamber of Mazarbul is a "large" square chamber, with a "high" door opening off of a "wide" corridor. Clearly there's some room to work here. What do these adjectives mean? Any dimensions you produce are pure guesswork.

The Second Hall is "cavernous", but "loftier and far longer" than the one they slept in (which again is given no certain dimensions). Is it as wide as the original chamber? Less so? How wide is that? All guesswork.

Bottom line, this whole wing mass argument doesn't make me hum and haw, it makes me say: all pure speculation.

I'm just thinking about this and I voted that the balrogs do have wings; but not necessarily can fly. If I remember correctly; when the Balrog attacks it gets described as having wings at one point.Don't quote me as I don't have the books with me. But a question that is getting asked is if the wings worked. If they did work why couldn't he just fly away from Gandalf in mid-air while they are falling. I don't think everyone will ever be happy with the answer.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Uh oh.....here we go again......

[Folwren]

If the balrog in the LotR had wings (and could fly) why did he even bother to use the bridge while Gandalf was holding it?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I learned something interesting recently....

A couple of weeks ago we had a bird trapped in the stovepipe to our old wood-burning stove. We couldn't get to it through the grilles and so we kept hoping it would fly out. Sadly, it never did and expired after a couple of days.

I was curious as to why it couldn't fly out and so I asked a friend of mine who teaches biology if he could help. He explained to me that only certain flying insects can truly hover, which is the ability to remain steady in the air or to go up or down without any lateral movement. Birds and bats, it seems, can only fly if they are going forward as well as up or down....

So hmmmm......if the balrog had bird- or bat-like wings they would have been useless in the enclosed space of the hall and more than useless, even hindrances, in the confines of the chasm. Now if it had wings like a bee or a dragonfly it could have easily flown to safety....now there's an amusing image.

[Boromir88]

Fordim, which is exactly why the argument that 'If the Balrog had wings why didn't it fly' doesn't work. However, what does work is this argument, which should totally disprove of a wing theory:

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.~Bridge of Khazad-dum

There is no other meaning or interpreation of this sentence except the fact that it is a simile. Tolkien is comparing the shadow of the balrog as being like wings. Also note, it doesn't say here that the Shadow of the balrog looked like wings, but that the shadow had reaches out like something had wings would unfold their wings.

Picture a bird again When it's just sitting still it's wings are folded up, however when it goes to 'fly' the wings reach out and unfold. That's the comparison here that's being made.

So, Tolkien is comparing the shadow of the balrog to wings. But it's not in the sense that the shadow had took the form of wings, and looked like wings, but the way it 'reaches' out was like two vast wings.

Then a little bit further down we have this quote:

It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.~ibid

Here there is no 'like' or 'as' but it's still a metaphor, more specifically it's an extended metaphor. It is pretty bad writing technique to use the word like or as to want to compare two different things. So, what authors like to do is use extended metaphors and this is most similar in poetry (where entire stanza or poems could just be long extended metaphors). The poet/author doesn't want to use the word like/as to draw a comparison everytime so they set up the comparison (using like or as) and keep the comparison going longer, keep it on, hence the name 'extended metaphor.'

What we have here is Tolkien clearly sets up that the shadow of the balrog were like wings, and he keeps that comparison going in the second quote.

Let's say you don't even believe me and you want to deny the common literary devices of writing. Let's think about it from a logical stance as well. We quite clearly know the height of a balrog. The most Tolkien ever conceived a balrog as being was twice the size of Glorfindel...however these are Tolkien's earliest drafts and by LOTR it's quite clear that Balrogs were roughly man-size, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.

This would put the Balrog at around 6-7 feet. Now what we have here in Moria is a chasm, a chasm is an area that is wider than it is long. That would mean the Balrog would have to have absolutely humorgous wings if he actually had literal wings that spread out from wall to wall. This would be extremely inproportianate. Something that was man-size and man-shape, as we are told, it just can't be possible for the Balrog to have a wingspan of say 70 feet (a conservative guess).

You also bring up mobility issues, the Balrog was quite agile, it 'leaped' it 'jumped' and I just can't see a 6-7 foot creature, with wings that when full spread would be over 10 times the size of his body, to be able to move around the mines as Durin's Bane is able to.

There you have it. If you don't believe in common writing devices authors use (similes, metaphors, extended metaphors...etc)...it's still not even logically possible for a Balrog to literally have wings. As if it did, the wings would not be proportionate to his body, and it would be terribly hard for him to be mobile in the mines carrying around wings at least 10 times the size of his body.