Melkor's depiction by artists: Flawed? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lord Melkor · 08-22-2005, 07:06 PM

Well, one can deduce the rough height of Melkor and his servants through logic reasoning

. It's safe to assume that Melkor would've been the tallest, being the Dark Lord and all that. Knowing Melkor's personality we can conclude that he would not allow one of his servants to be taller than himself. We also know that Glorfindel fought a Balrog and stabbed him in the stomach or chest and we know that the Balrog of Moria was small enough to attempt to enter the Chamber of Mazarbul so it's obvious that the movie Balrog is too large. My personal estimate is that the average Balrog was probably around 3 meters tall, still enough to tower over any of the Children of Iluvatar. Melkor himself would be even bigger, probably approaching 4 meters. Anything taller that 4 meters and the whole duel between him and Fingolfin will start to take on comedic qualities, with Fingolfin hacking away at Melkor's toes. At 4 meters Melkor would've been twice as tall as Fingolfin, more than enough to stand 'before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable enblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud.' Fingolfin would've been able to hit most of Melkors body with his sword, taking the reach of his blade into account. It also means that Melkor's foot is small enough to 'set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' If Morgoth was as tall as some artists depict him than 'And Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, face and entire upper body and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' would've been a more accurate desciption of the event.

Kuruharan · 08-22-2005, 08:29 PM

...but I've never allowed silly things like that to stop me.

Quote:

It's safe to assume that Melkor would've been the tallest, being the Dark Lord and all that. Knowing Melkor's personality we can conclude that he would not allow one of his servants to be taller than himself.

There is a possible exception to this though. His dragons would have been "larger" than he was. I guess it would be up to the reader's imagination whether a dragon standing on its legs would have been taller. If it was a winged dragon the wings would probably add to the height (even when they are folded).

Now this may just be an exception that proves a rule...

Also, I'm probably not well equipped to discuss dragon sizes and heights because my mental picture of them has evolved considerably. I had originally pictured them as being huge beasts that would tower well above humans and elves when standing on their legs. However, my picture has changed considerably. Due partially to the realization that this type of dragon would be ill-suited to the underground life that dragons preferred and partially to seeing Tolkien's own picture of Smaug they have become decidedly more snake-like and lower to the ground.

(It is kind of hard to disagree with how Tolkien drew Smaug in my own view).

However, I guess it could also depend on where the legs are and the structure of the neck whether a dragon would have been taller than Morgoth.

Elrowen Tinúviel · 08-22-2005, 08:33 PM

I must admit... sometimes logical reasoning isn't my strongest suit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Melkor

Fingolfin would've been able to hit most of Melkors body with his sword, taking the reach of his blade into account.

I completely understand that one.... I'm training in SCA heavy weapons combat, and I've sparred with people two (sometimes three) times my size... reach is insane... with a sword an inch longer (and using your body properly....... haven't quite gotten that down yet) it makes a huge difference!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Melkor

If Morgoth was as tall as some artists depict him than 'And Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, face and entire upper body and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' would've been a more accurate desciption of the event.

That makes for an interesting picture.

-Elrowen

The Perky Ent · 09-20-2005, 08:48 PM

Behold! My Morgoth Gallery!

Morgoth 1
Morgoth 2
Morgoth 3
Morgoth 4
Morgoth 5

Because of the size of the pics, They're in link format. Anyway, here's my two cents...

Being a big fan of Ulmo, I've always considered Valar around this size:

If that's too big for you, I can put it back in link form! Anyway, I consider Valar being at least over five times the size of a man. Morgoth, in my opinion, is a mixture of many evil and powerful beings. One of them being Ares, the Greek God of war. Ares

I consider Morgoth not far from the appearance of a man, but in an 'evil incarnate' look. The terrible feeling you get from seeing him is probably part of his 'All shall fear me and despair' aura he seems to carry about him. Fingolfin must be the king of neck strength. Clearly we have much to learn from him...

Ainaserkewen · 09-20-2005, 11:42 PM

While I agree with those examples of yours Perky as being more or less what Morgoth the Terrible looked like in those days of the Elven Wars, I can't help but wonder what his shape was when he was still just a nuissance. Or was he bad from the moment the Vala chose their forms?

And if that was his only form, the evil one, then how did he know what looked evil? How did he know what would frighten men and elves before he had even met them?

drigel · 09-21-2005, 07:25 AM

Its interesting that none of the portraits shows a face. I'd like to see a face! Or, as an alternative, what actor's face would come the closest to representing Morgoth?

Something "fair and terrible" I'm sure would be the general description, at least for M in the beginning.....

The Perky Ent · 09-21-2005, 09:17 AM

The second picture of Morgoth has a face, inaccurate though it may be

drigel · 09-21-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

The second picture of Morgoth has a face, inaccurate though it may be

yea kinda.....
Looking at actual references to the physical description of M..... all I can find is
taller than a human (but not super large)
black hands (after taking the silms)
some references to the eyes...
not much else.
In my mind, I dont picture him as having an ugly evil face....

Formendacil · 09-21-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ainaserkewen

While I agree with those examples of yours Perky as being more or less what Morgoth the Terrible looked like in those days of the Elven Wars, I can't help but wonder what his shape was when he was still just a nuissance. Or was he bad from the moment the Vala chose their forms?

But they were able to change their forms, and Morgoth retained that power until he switched to his "Dark King of Utumno" form in Ungoliant's lair.

I imagine that before that he appeared rather like Sauron did to the Elves of Eregion and the people of Numenor: wise and fair.

"Not all that is gold glitters"

or, inversely:

"Not all that glitters is gold"

Galadriel55 · 06-14-2014, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Like a Balrog, his body was probably not much more than 10 feet tall. Maybe around 15 on the outside, but certainly no more than that.

Perhaps. I'm not good with foot estimates, but this is how I picture his size. Fingolfin "hewed" his foot, and I imagine the sword went in quite deeply. If you can stick about half a sword in a foot, it must be a rather large foot.

Zigûr · 06-14-2014, 08:50 AM

I know this is quite an old thread, but this has always been my favourite depiction of Morgoth, Ted Nasmith's "Morgoth punishes Húrin":
http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/t...al/silm_12.jpg

One of the best things about it in my opinion is that it leaves Morgoth's face to our imagination. I'm not such a fan of the face in Nasmith's front-on depiction which was posted above:
http://img-fan.theonering.net/~roloz...th/morgoth.jpg

My issues with certain fan depictions of the Enemy are as follows:

1) Too much plate armour. I know Morgoth was in his origin a great "maker" but nonetheless such armour to the best of our knowledge probably didn't exist at any point in Arda's history. Nasmith depicts Morgoth in mail and with a more "kingly" cloak and crown, which I think reflects Morgoth's character. I feel like he saw himself as a ruler more than a combatant.

2) Either covered faces or overly demonic or goblinoid faces - I think he should have a "terrible countenance" - hideous perhaps - but in the sense of a sneering, contemptuous, evil human being, full of arrogance and loathing for all other things.

I have the same problem with the depictions of balrogs that typically display them as horned and hoofed satyr-devils even though there's nothing in the text to substantiate this claim (and in my opinion they're more inspired by the fire-jötnar of the Norse).

Some of you may have seen before my own (rather crude) attempt to visualise Morgoth:
http://robanes.deviantart.com/art/Mo...ured-292036738

He's not haughty enough, however, in my opinion, and I wish I'd made him look less brooding and more angry. And given him eyes.

Here's Gothmog:
http://robanes.deviantart.com/art/Th...rogs-441388773

Apologies for shilling my own stuff but this is the closest I can come to conveying how I personally see these characters to some extent.

09-20-2005, 08:48 PM	#4
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	My two cents...(Yes, I know it's 80% pictures, but humor me) Behold! My Morgoth Gallery! Morgoth 1 Morgoth 2 Morgoth 3 Morgoth 4 Morgoth 5 Because of the size of the pics, They're in link format. Anyway, here's my two cents... Being a big fan of Ulmo, I've always considered Valar around this size: If that's too big for you, I can put it back in link form! Anyway, I consider Valar being at least over five times the size of a man. Morgoth, in my opinion, is a mixture of many evil and powerful beings. One of them being Ares, the Greek God of war. Ares I consider Morgoth not far from the appearance of a man, but in an 'evil incarnate' look. The terrible feeling you get from seeing him is probably part of his 'All shall fear me and despair' aura he seems to carry about him. Fingolfin must be the king of neck strength. Clearly we have much to learn from him... __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

09-20-2005, 11:42 PM	#5
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 651	While I agree with those examples of yours Perky as being more or less what Morgoth the Terrible looked like in those days of the Elven Wars, I can't help but wonder what his shape was when he was still just a nuissance. Or was he bad from the moment the Vala chose their forms? And if that was his only form, the evil one, then how did he know what looked evil? How did he know what would frighten men and elves before he had even met them? __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

09-21-2005, 09:17 AM	#7
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	The second picture of Morgoth has a face, inaccurate though it may be __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

06-14-2014, 08:50 AM	#11
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	I know this is quite an old thread, but this has always been my favourite depiction of Morgoth, Ted Nasmith's "Morgoth punishes Húrin": http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/t...al/silm_12.jpg One of the best things about it in my opinion is that it leaves Morgoth's face to our imagination. I'm not such a fan of the face in Nasmith's front-on depiction which was posted above: http://img-fan.theonering.net/~roloz...th/morgoth.jpg My issues with certain fan depictions of the Enemy are as follows: 1) Too much plate armour. I know Morgoth was in his origin a great "maker" but nonetheless such armour to the best of our knowledge probably didn't exist at any point in Arda's history. Nasmith depicts Morgoth in mail and with a more "kingly" cloak and crown, which I think reflects Morgoth's character. I feel like he saw himself as a ruler more than a combatant. 2) Either covered faces or overly demonic or goblinoid faces - I think he should have a "terrible countenance" - hideous perhaps - but in the sense of a sneering, contemptuous, evil human being, full of arrogance and loathing for all other things. I have the same problem with the depictions of balrogs that typically display them as horned and hoofed satyr-devils even though there's nothing in the text to substantiate this claim (and in my opinion they're more inspired by the fire-jötnar of the Norse). Some of you may have seen before my own (rather crude) attempt to visualise Morgoth: http://robanes.deviantart.com/art/Mo...ured-292036738 He's not haughty enough, however, in my opinion, and I wish I'd made him look less brooding and more angry. And given him eyes. Here's Gothmog: http://robanes.deviantart.com/art/Th...rogs-441388773 Apologies for shilling my own stuff but this is the closest I can come to conveying how I personally see these characters to some extent. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 06-15-2014 at 01:03 AM. Reason: Fixing fourth URL

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08-22-2005, 07:06 PM	#1
Lord Melkor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 78	Well, one can deduce the rough height of Melkor and his servants through logic reasoning . It's safe to assume that Melkor would've been the tallest, being the Dark Lord and all that. Knowing Melkor's personality we can conclude that he would not allow one of his servants to be taller than himself. We also know that Glorfindel fought a Balrog and stabbed him in the stomach or chest and we know that the Balrog of Moria was small enough to attempt to enter the Chamber of Mazarbul so it's obvious that the movie Balrog is too large. My personal estimate is that the average Balrog was probably around 3 meters tall, still enough to tower over any of the Children of Iluvatar. Melkor himself would be even bigger, probably approaching 4 meters. Anything taller that 4 meters and the whole duel between him and Fingolfin will start to take on comedic qualities, with Fingolfin hacking away at Melkor's toes. At 4 meters Melkor would've been twice as tall as Fingolfin, more than enough to stand 'before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable enblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud.' Fingolfin would've been able to hit most of Melkors body with his sword, taking the reach of his blade into account. It also means that Melkor's foot is small enough to 'set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' If Morgoth was as tall as some artists depict him than 'And Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, face and entire upper body and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' would've been a more accurate desciption of the event.

09-21-2005, 07:25 AM	#6
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Its interesting that none of the portraits shows a face. I'd like to see a face! Or, as an alternative, what actor's face would come the closest to representing Morgoth? Something "fair and terrible" I'm sure would be the general description, at least for M in the beginning.....