3 + 9, x (7+12) Divided by Eleventy-one... oh dear

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I don't suppose these websites explained just how 'god' made clear his preference, did they?

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

Regarding the Christian bible, seven does show up quite a bit. (I haven't counted.) Revelation in particular is 7-heavy.

In the Old Testament twelve is a very popular number, but Tolkien didn't seem too taken up with that one.

Generally speaking, I think Tolkien was more worried about the spirituality of his characters than the spirituality of the numbers he used. Since so many of his themes/ motifs are myth-based I would expect some of his number games to be myth based as well.

I just think it's fun arranging seven stars around one white tree.

[the phantom]

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

I think about everyone uses seven. Every book I have has a page seven.

But seriously, I'm not joking here- seven is a cool number. Say it. It has an edge to it... seven... sssseven....

It looks pretty cool, too. It's only a horizontal line and a slanted line so it seems weird that it could look cool, but wouldn't you agree that seven is a cool looking number? Just look at it-> 7

When I said it was a sexy number, I meant it. "Seven" even starts the same as "sexy".

There are many gambling games that involve rolling the number seven with dice. There are also games that use seven as a wild card. If you pull the lever on a slot machine and get sevens across it is a very good thing. I know a lot of people who consider seven their lucky number.

Seventeen magazine is one of the most popular magazines in the country. Why isn't Sixteen or Eighteen so popular?

But don't completely disregard my entire post as nonsense. I really think there's something to it. Sure, Prof T might have gone with seven for a concrete reason (to mirror something Biblical or something in a Norse myth), but I also think that he might've picked seven anyway without religious influence just because seven is a great number.

I know I would've picked it.

*everyone stares at phantom not quite knowing what to think*

[Folwren]

It appears that you've gotten several answers like the answer I was intending to post when I read your first post, TGWBS. Those numbers are everywhere in the Bible, as are several others, but sometimes they can be difficult to see and pick out.

I won't go into detail because I don't have time and others have already commented on it.

- Folwren

[Shelob]

Phantom may be on to something...

Looking solely at the numbers 0-9, because people use a base 10 system and those are the digits upon which everything else is based, the numbers which tend to catch the eye/mind most are the odd numbers and 2. Ignoring 2 and looking just at the odd numbers I think it makes sense for 7 and 3 to set themselves apart. Look at it this way:

1 -- oneself, holds importance because it is representative of the individual
3 -- ?
5 -- number of digits on one hand, an easy-to-work-with sensical number (as is 10: two sets of five, total number of fingers, base-10)
7 -- ?
9 -- three squared, three sets of three...

I know that 9's reason for being important is based off of 3 and 3 doesn't have a reason. But by dint of not holding any material specialness I think that 3 and 7 naturally take on a more spiritual significance...fearing what we don't know and all that. Taking that as true 9 (three sets of three) and concievably 49 (seven sets of seven) are of even more importance than just 3 and 7.

As for why 7 would be used-more-often/more-important than 3 my guess would be that it's bigger, people are always drawn towards big things (mountains for example) even if for no other reason than "because it's there".


...I'm thinking that that 2 I ignored earlier could be of some importance as well, not necesarily in Tolkiens work but in the way we tend to assign importance to other numbers...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I think about everyone uses seven. Every book I have has a page seven.

But seriously, I'm not joking here- seven is a cool number. Say it. It has an edge to it... seven... sssseven....

It looks pretty cool, too. It's only a horizontal line and a slanted line so it seems weird that it could look cool, but wouldn't you agree that seven is a cool looking number? Just look at it-> 7

When I said it was a sexy number, I meant it. "Seven" even starts the same as "sexy".

Forgive me, the phantom, for not completely following your argument here. I think that, if you had included a reference to Tolkien's preference for cellar door I might have been thoroughly sure what you mean. (See piosenniel's quotation of Tolkien on Welsh in post # 9.) Is that what you are getting at? The lurvely sound and idea of seven as it trips off the tongue?

I mean, I think sooner or later this is going to come around to 'real meaning' versus just enjoyment. If you know what I mean.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Sure, Prof T might have gone with seven for a concrete reason (to mirror something Biblical or something in a Norse myth), but I also think that he might've picked seven anyway without religious influence just because seven is a great number.

There are some things in LotR which have a specifically Christian reference - but they tend to be 'hidden'. He stated himself that the date of the fall of Barad-dur - March 25th, the old date of Good Friday - was chosen deliberately ('Guide to the names in LotR' in Lobdell), but this is easily (& intentionally so on Tolkien's part) missed by general readers. The number 'symbolism' in the story - the 'Numenorean' seven for instance, seems to have a meaning within the story & its there we should look for it, not in the Primary world.

[Lyta_Underhill]

1 -- oneself, holds importance because it is representative of the individual
3 -- ?
5 -- number of digits on one hand, an easy-to-work-with sensical number (as is 10: two sets of five, total number of fingers, base-10)
7 -- ?
9 -- three squared, three sets of three...

Also, the numbers 2,3,5 and 7 are prime numbers, meaning divisible only by the number itself and 1. Perhaps it is something in the non-reducibility of 3 and 7 that make them significant? Well, in some realms, anyway! But then where does that leave 2 and 5? [I just noticed that Hilde Bracegirdle beat me to this observation by some years...oh well!] Anyway, I think the significance of numbers in any work or in any connotation boils down to how much fun human brains have when playing with numbers. Just think what would be significant if our system was hexadecimal...I'm sure there are lots of hex-code writers out there who have really obscure jokes based on some orderly arrangement of base 16 numbers, and perhaps one day, when computers really do become self-aware, their humor and literature will have a rich history of hexadecimal system significators...

Cheers!
Lyta

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Generally speaking, I think Tolkien was more worried about the spirituality of his characters than the spirituality of the numbers he used. Since so many of his themes/ motifs are myth-based I would expect some of his number games to be myth based as well.

I would say his faith probably inpacted the numbers as well as myth. As davem later said, there is Christian symbology in some of the numbers.

the phantom - Erm. Well. You're probably picking up on the "luckiness" of seven that is very existant in the Western world and has been for centuries. Perhaps this luckiness originated from the Bible, but it is there... people think of "Lucky Seven" as the opposite of "Unlucky Thirteen."

Originally Posted by Shelob

But by dint of not holding any material specialness I think that 3 and 7 naturally take on a more spiritual significance.

Probably. Maybe that's why 7 is everywhere in the Bible? Oh, welcome back!

Originally Posted by davem

The number 'symbolism' in the story - the 'Numenorean' seven for instance, seems to have a meaning within the story & its there we should look for it, not in the Primary world.

But the significance would probably have a source in the Primary World, wouldn't it? Would Tolkien just pick a few numbers at random to be favoured in his world? I'd argue that he would have been influenced subconsciously, at the least, by the Primary world, and particularly from the two main influences of LotR - Religion and Myth.

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

Also, the numbers 2,3,5 and 7 are prime numbers, meaning divisible only by the number itself and 1. Perhaps it is something in the non-reducibility of 3 and 7 that make them significant?

That's also very likely to be true. However, discussion seems to veering in the direction of "Why are particular numbers important in the Real World?" which, though it could have influenced Tolkien's use of numbers, isn't the point in question.


In any case, I believe the mystery of the Threes is solved. Three, as Joy said, is the number of Divine Perfection because of the Trinity.
The Three Silmarils are holy artefacts shining with the light of the trees.
The Three Houses of the Eldar - they accepted the summons of the Valar, thus entering the world of Eru.
The Three Houses of the Edain - by accepting the Eldar, they accept the Valar and Eru.
Three Unions of Elves and Men - The Perfect Number. There's something very holy about the Unions - they seem predestined by Eru to insert a strain of the Eldar into Men, thereby preserving them.

Those are the Definites. There are two more instances of Threes mentioned above.
The Three Elven Rings - I'm not entirely sure about these. The Three, in my eyes, represent the fall of the Eldar and their resistance to change - nothing holy there, quite the opposite.
The Three Sons of Finwe - Can be discounted as unimportant. They don't have the same significance as the rest of the above.

One question solved?

EDIT: A thought. Eru originally had the Elder Children and the Followers. The adoption of the Dwarves could then be seen as an act of completion - Eru accepts the Dwarves and thus has Three sets of Children (The Dwarves being a secondary creation, but still belonging and owing life to Eru). Perhaps the creation of the Dwarves and their adoption was pre-destined (I can't see Eru not knowing it would happen), thereby allowing the Valar to contribute to the Completion of the Children?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

When I said it was a sexy number, I meant it. "Seven" even starts the same as "sexy".

I always found "6" to be rather sexier. Doesn't it look explosive? Like a little round bomb with a fuse coming off the top?

There are many gambling games that involve rolling the number seven with dice. There are also games that use seven as a wild card. If you pull the lever on a slot machine and get sevens across it is a very good thing. I know a lot of people who consider seven their lucky number.

But none of these have to do with the religious connotations, phantom ol' buddy. And if they do, then they might just share a common bond with Tolkien's work. Just think... Bilbo with Craps. Doesn't that just sound interesting?

Originally Posted by davem the birthday-boy

There are some things in LotR which have a specifically Christian reference - but they tend to be 'hidden'.

Ooh, I've just turned into a Werewolf player again. Think sneakily. Did Tolkien tend more often to hide his references? He's very accomplished with his subtlety. Would most people notice most of his sneaking?

But perhaps he's being obvious about it on purpose to make us second guess it.

Or maybe, like the phantom says, there's nothing to it and we're over thinking it all.

Choices A, B, or C. To be honest, I think he used the "religious" numbers intentionally and obviously. No big deal. After all, he also used "angels", "God", the fallen "angel" as the ultimate bad guy...

[Mithalwen]

I saw one of those gruesome "Their hands in your life" style hospital watch programmes a few years ago and a surgeon was fitting a heart valve while being questioned by a particularly inane presenter. When asked how many knots he used the Surgeon replied seven and when asked why he replied that it was because it meant completeness in Hebrew.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Don't really have anything to add to this discussion except to say that there were eight palantiri, not seven. Granted, only seven made it to Middle-earth.

There, that clears everything up, doesn't it?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Don't really have anything to add to this discussion except to say that there were eight palantiri, not seven. Granted, only seven made it to Middle-earth.

You're joking, right? You had better be joking, because we're messing around with the rescue of the palantiri in Prisoner of Numenor rpg, and if this is so, it messes everything up! .... that is, as long as we're trying to be canonical. You, um, are joking, aren't you?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I thought we had Canonicity safely shipped off to Mordor. With her gone, there's naught to worry about.

On a more serious (and slightly more related) note... there were eight palantirs!?! Are you sure? I always thought... "seven stars, seven stones, one white tree". Did I miss out on something?
And speaking of numbers... is there a biblical importance for "9"? We've got our holy trinity of elven rings, our perfect number of dwarven rings, our ultimate power source of one ring... and then nine. Interesting though, that the "holy trinity" bit goes to the Elves, who are more spiritual beings than Man. The "perfect number" goes to the perfectionists that are dwarves, and the "one" is for the one force that can make or break existance in Middle Earth.