M-m-meaning! Let's define, is it 'meaning' or 'Meaning', or if there's any at all... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-17-2005, 11:43 AM

But some meanings mean more and are more meaningful than other meanings, which are actually nonsense. So I see what you're saying TGWBS, but you must realise that sometimes there is a completely wrong answer.

But maybe never a right one.

EDIT: Ok, I noticed the inverted commas around meaning in that option and now understand that it means *cough* an overriding central meaning. Right, that's ok. Not meaning *cough* that it has no meaning.

I feel comfortable voting that way now.

the guy who be short · 08-17-2005, 11:49 AM

Entertainment is meaningful, or entertainment can carry a meaning?

And with regard to more meaningful meanings - depends on your position. Obviously the author's meaning would mean more to Tolkien than to us, etc.

Sigh, if only we could tick multiple boxes... (I'm sure VBulletin would allow such a task, I think I've sen it on other forums).

Lalwendë · 08-18-2005, 02:44 AM

I like how some people have been asking whether the fact that the books are simply entertaining should not be enough. Because if LotR was not entertaining then I doubt that so many of us would have read (and re-read) it. Maybe we could have a thread/poll sometime on what makes it such fun to read?

Art does not need to have a deep meaning to be wonderful. If I think of films, one of my favourites is Kill Bill, which has very little meaning (beyond don't cross blondes who are skilled assassins

); it is simply highly entertaining and the only real 'depth' comes from the layering of references and the action/dialogue. I doubt that Tarantino meant for us to find anything profound in it. Another good example might be Monty Python. I would say that the only 'meaning' it has is to get us to think "isn't life absurd?" - it's lack of meaning is it's meaning - yet it is still Art, and it is entertaining.

But then where would we place something which is entertaining but is 'cheap'?

It's too early, my head hurts...

Lyta_Underhill · 08-18-2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Art does not need to have a deep meaning to be wonderful. If I think of films, one of my favourites is Kill Bill, which has very little meaning (beyond don't cross blondes who are skilled assassins ); it is simply highly entertaining and the only real 'depth' comes from the layering of references and the action/dialogue. I doubt that Tarantino meant for us to find anything profound in it.

Aw, fiddlesticks! You mean I wasn't supposed to find anything profound in Kill Bill? Too late! So many people focused on the surface theme of revenge that the underlying theme of redemption, restraint and proper use of power at the end seems to have gotten lost! Probably due to the fact that she went ahead and killed Bill anyway! Sorry, I must be the only one who found parts of Kill Bill profound. Even if Tarantino didn't mean it! Sorry for the digression, but I figure it illustrates some point about 'meaning.'

Cheers!
Lyta

Azaelia of Willowbottom · 08-21-2005, 11:26 AM

I voted for the one about reader's interpretation collaborating with athor's intent. For me, that about sums it up.

About the entertainment thing, I think that if the only purpose of LOTR was merely to be entertaining, I doubt I would have read LOTR as many times as I have and here is why: There are so many layers, so many characters and themes to consider at once. If the book was written to just be entertaining would it have wound up being such a deep, powerful, and moving story? Of course, that's what I get out of it. The next reader might see it totally differently. That's just one reader's interpretation.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find a lot of meaning in LOTR, and for me, it is more than just an entertaining story. I think Tolkien meant it to be more than just a simple novel...but who knows. He's certainly not around to ask. So we don't really know the true author's intent of what we should get out of the book. But because of the themes and style and events and characters, we can get a pretty good idea what he might have meant, what messages he wanted to convey.

So I think that "meaning" is a fairly flexible term. I walked away from LOTR with messages of hope and friendship and courage in my mind. Someone else may have left with ideas about fate and destiny. Another person might have seen it as about the dark road society is taking. Certainly Tolkien put all those elements and more in there. But the reader is free to choose which themes, which meanings to carry away with them.

Thinlómien · 08-25-2005, 06:57 AM

A glimpse of divine truth, of course...

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-25-2005, 07:24 AM

I don't really like the word "opinion", since it implies too much in the way of conscious control on the part of the reader but, for me, such "meaning" as there is can only exist within the mind of each individual reader. So that's the option that I have plumped for. An uninterpreted text is meaningless.

The reader's interpretation is, of course, influenced by authorial intent, the views of others and a multitude of other factors. But it is not a collaboration.

View Poll Results: The 'real meaning' of the Lord of the Rings is to be found in:
The Author's intent	2	7.14%
The Reader's individual opinion	6	21.43%
Mainstream Reader consensus	0	0%
The BarrowDowns Book Forum consensus	2	7.14%
A Glimpse of Divine Truth	1	3.57%
The Reader's collaboration with both the Author's intent and the opinions of others	4	14.29%
Divine Truth glimpsed by the individual Reader guided by the Author's intent	3	10.71%
It does not have to have a 'meaning' at all, the books are entertaining, and that's sufficient	5	17.86%
All of the above may be true up to an extent	5	17.86%
Current poll does not cover all possible options at all, we need another, refined one [if you choose this answer, please list other possible options in the thread. Thank you]	0	0%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

08-17-2005, 11:43 AM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	But some meanings mean more and are more meaningful than other meanings, which are actually nonsense. So I see what you're saying TGWBS, but you must realise that sometimes there is a completely wrong answer. But maybe never a right one. EDIT: Ok, I noticed the inverted commas around meaning in that option and now understand that it means cough an overriding central meaning. Right, that's ok. Not meaning cough that it has no meaning. I feel comfortable voting that way now. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 08-17-2005 at 11:53 AM. Reason: To add a little bit...

08-17-2005, 11:49 AM	#2
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Entertainment is meaningful, or entertainment can carry a meaning? And with regard to more meaningful meanings - depends on your position. Obviously the author's meaning would mean more to Tolkien than to us, etc. Sigh, if only we could tick multiple boxes... (I'm sure VBulletin would allow such a task, I think I've sen it on other forums). Last edited by the guy who be short; 08-17-2005 at 11:50 AM. Reason: "spllenig"

08-18-2005, 02:44 AM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I like how some people have been asking whether the fact that the books are simply entertaining should not be enough. Because if LotR was not entertaining then I doubt that so many of us would have read (and re-read) it. Maybe we could have a thread/poll sometime on what makes it such fun to read? Art does not need to have a deep meaning to be wonderful. If I think of films, one of my favourites is Kill Bill, which has very little meaning (beyond don't cross blondes who are skilled assassins ); it is simply highly entertaining and the only real 'depth' comes from the layering of references and the action/dialogue. I doubt that Tarantino meant for us to find anything profound in it. Another good example might be Monty Python. I would say that the only 'meaning' it has is to get us to think "isn't life absurd?" - it's lack of meaning is it's meaning - yet it is still Art, and it is entertaining. But then where would we place something which is entertaining but is 'cheap'? It's too early, my head hurts... __________________ Gordon's alive!

08-21-2005, 11:26 AM	#5
Azaelia of Willowbottom Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: By the Sea Posts: 446	I voted for the one about reader's interpretation collaborating with athor's intent. For me, that about sums it up. About the entertainment thing, I think that if the only purpose of LOTR was merely to be entertaining, I doubt I would have read LOTR as many times as I have and here is why: There are so many layers, so many characters and themes to consider at once. If the book was written to just be entertaining would it have wound up being such a deep, powerful, and moving story? Of course, that's what I get out of it. The next reader might see it totally differently. That's just one reader's interpretation. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find a lot of meaning in LOTR, and for me, it is more than just an entertaining story. I think Tolkien meant it to be more than just a simple novel...but who knows. He's certainly not around to ask. So we don't really know the true author's intent of what we should get out of the book. But because of the themes and style and events and characters, we can get a pretty good idea what he might have meant, what messages he wanted to convey. So I think that "meaning" is a fairly flexible term. I walked away from LOTR with messages of hope and friendship and courage in my mind. Someone else may have left with ideas about fate and destiny. Another person might have seen it as about the dark road society is taking. Certainly Tolkien put all those elements and more in there. But the reader is free to choose which themes, which meanings to carry away with them. __________________ "Wherever I have been, I am back."

08-25-2005, 06:57 AM	#6
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	A glimpse of divine truth, of course... __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

08-25-2005, 07:24 AM	#7
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I don't really like the word "opinion", since it implies too much in the way of conscious control on the part of the reader but, for me, such "meaning" as there is can only exist within the mind of each individual reader. So that's the option that I have plumped for. An uninterpreted text is meaningless. The reader's interpretation is, of course, influenced by authorial intent, the views of others and a multitude of other factors. But it is not a collaboration. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

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