Learning Quenya - Discussion Thread

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Maybe a little off topic but couldn't resist. I just saw this in the best signature thread: "Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?"
It took me a while to understand that it wasn't Finnish and there wasn't anything funny in it. Do you see any similarities in it with this sentence: Simani julma niin eltaantuva. It's Finnish and means "my mead so rancid". Anyway, beautiful language this Quenya, is it not?

[Encaitare]

It's Finnish and means "my mead so rancid".

Maybe that's why Galadriel wanted someone to refill her cup.

[the guy who be short]

Permission...? You don't need permission. You don't even need approval. Lemme know, and you're in. In fact, even if you don't let me know, I tend to pick up that you're learning Quenya and add you to the list of Quenyans.

In light of the rather lacklustre response to the last poetry contest, I think we should maybe tweak the frequency. People do have lives to live, I realise. Once every six months sound good to everybody? Bad? Perfect compromise?

[Encaitare]

Six months is a little too long, I think. Maybe every three or four months?

[Encaitare]

Hey, you crazy Quenya kids, you. Let's get this going again, huh? Or else I'm switching to Klingon.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Hey, you crazy Quenya kids, you. Let's get this going again, huh? Or else I'm switching to Klingon.

Ouch. Ouch, ouch, ouch.

Did everyone else stop, uh, take an indefinite break as well?

[Thinlómien]

I intended to start but didn't, then I studied in the Christmas Holiday but I have been now having a break of some three weeks and so...

I think I need a pair so that I can keep studying...

[Joy]

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

Do you see any similarities in it with this sentence: Simani julma niin eltaantuva. It's Finnish and means "my mead so rancid". Anyway, beautiful language this Quenya, is it not?

Now, that is too cool!!! Is it pronounced in any way like Quenya?

[Encaitare]

I'm working on translating a poem that I wrote in English, and here are some of the resources I've been using.

Quenya Wordlists -- from Ardalambion. Both English-to-Quenya and Quenya-to-English wordlists can be downloaded.

New Words -- If you can't find an attested form of the word you're looking for, the next best thing to go with is a "reconstructed" form.

And now, a grammar question: for my poem, I want to say "much longer". There are different forms of "much" for whether it is an adjective or an adverb. In my case, what would it be? Adjective, I think.

EDIT: Never mind, I figured it out... and I was wrong. It's an adverb.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Joy

Is it pronounced in any way like Quenya?

You can pronounce it exactly like Quenya but the stress is always on the first syllable of a word. I just noticed that I wrote it wrong yesterday. The correct translation is: my cruel mead so rancid. Anyway, maybe that's enough about that subject.

Enca, I couldn't even dream about saying "much longer" in Quenya yet.

[the guy who be short]

Joy: Welcome to the club. I hope this thread services all your Quenyan needs... Oh, and it would please me better if you didn't remember me. I seem to recall being a bit of a prat back then, really...

Originally Posted by spawn

Ladies and gentlemen, I have just written my very first poem in Quenya!

Congratulations!

The bad news is that it's probably full of mistakes and I have to learn a few more lessons before I can really finish it. I wrote it first in English but I noticed pretty quickly that I have to make it much more simple so it corresponds with my Q. skills even a little better. It was hard to write without past tense, prepositions (except "nu") personal pronouns and whatnot. But I'm getting there!

Not to worry, you can always go back afterwards and fiddle with it. If you really need to use something like a pronoun, you can get a basic understanding from the English-Quenya wordlist.
Yes, the language is beautiful, and I must roll off my chair and writhe on the floor in laughter for a few seconds at that Finnish sentence. Maybe he intended it to be like that... And yeah, explains the whole cup thing.

I just had a thought: What type of poetry do you think Quenya is suited to? Before I started, I imagined I'd be writing about summer and trees and blossoming flowers, and Quenya would probably work very well with that. At the moment, though, I'm writing an "epic" poem on the Fall of the Noldor - and the Quenya really seems to fit the epic mood of the poem.

Originally Posted by spawn

Enca, I couldn't even dream about saying "much longer" in Quenya yet.

Me neither!

Originally Posted by Enca

New Words -- If you can't find an attested form of the word you're looking for, the next best thing to go with is a "reconstructed" form.

Careful, Enca. Both the Barrow Wight and I would like to stick to "pure" Tolkien Quenya, though of course a little extrapolation is required. Nilp also declared an interest in creating new words from stems. This is different.
Obviously, we don't want Grelvish on BD, but I'm also wary of creating new words from know "Qenya" or Primitive Elvish roots. The site you gave a link to states

This list cannot be taken as a wordlist of Quenya words devised by J.R.R. Tolkien himself, and people therefore should not take and freely use them as if they were 'real'. It is very possible that they are non-sense or completely wrong, but until we have Tolkien's own words, we must, if we want to use Quenya, help ourselves and such words may be used as our temporary solution.

That said, a lot of the words seem to be derived logically enough for use by mixing two or more old words / suffixs etc. together. I'd support using these. I'm against creating new words from Primitive Elvish stems - we can't have any idea whether Tolkien would still use them in the same way, or if he'd make them irregular, or if he wouldn't want them used at all. I'd advise against using these.

[Encaitare]

As you said, the words on that site seem to be logically derived, based on known words. In my opinion, they are to be used as a last resort, when no other related word or synonym can be found.

With this in mind, I have a couple of questions.

1. What are your opinions on combining words to make compound words? The poem I'm translating has a nautical sort of theme, and one word I had to scrounge around in order to translate was 'figurehead'. I settled for lango-nís = 'prow-woman'.

2. Is it okay to 'logically derive' a noun from a verb? Again, as a last resort. I need a word for 'sail' (the noun), but I can only find the verb: wili-. Could I somehow follow the pattern linda- (verb, sing) --> lindë (noun, song)? Willë would not be an option because it's the past tense form of the noun, but maybe there's some way, wilë, perhaps, though it doesn't look as nice... Or, I could try another compound word, rúmëa-cirya (moves-ship) or something similar.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Encataire

What are your opinions on combining words to make compound words? The poem I'm translating has a nautical sort of theme, and one word I had to scrounge around in order to translate was 'figurehead'. I settled for lango-nís = 'prow-woman'.

I think it works, as long as it makes sense. I don't do it at the moment as I'm not exactly sure how to do so - whether endings change somehow or something weird like that, which is almost bound to happen with Quenya. "Prow" + "woman" makes middlish sense to me, you could get away with using it and people would probably realise what you mean. An extreme that wouldn't make sense would be "cup" + "board" for "cupboard". Yes, it was a stupid example, but you get what I mean (or I hope you do). Sometimes it won't work translating individual components.

Originally Posted by enca

Is it okay to 'logically derive' a noun from a verb? Again, as a last resort. I need a word for 'sail' (the noun), but I can only find the verb: wili-. Could I somehow follow the pattern linda- (verb, sing) --> lindë (noun, song)? Willë would not be an option because it's the past tense form of the noun, but maybe there's some way, wilë, perhaps, though it doesn't look as nice... Or, I could try another compound word, rúmëa-cirya (moves-ship) or something similar.

Again, as long as it makes sense. "Sing" into "Song" makes sense to me. "Sail (vb)" into "sail (n)" doesn't. The verb and noun are connected in English, but in other languages a sail could be called a "fluttercloth" or anything else - we don't know what. A song is almost always going to be derived from the verb "to sing" though. Also, "moves-ship" makes no sense to me. Nor would "wind-cloth" or "shipsheet" - you can't really look at either and think "that's a sail" and it's also unlikely that they would be Quenya words for sail. This is just English-speaking people trying to get Quenya to do what they want.

The problem with trying to translate a poem from English into Quenya is that you have to change it - Quenya doesn't have a very extensive vocabulary. You'd probably end up with something reasonably different. That's why I think of what I want to say in English, then try it in Quenya. If it doesn't work, I think of something else or look for synonyms. It's easier that way - you can make sense and say what you want.

Tell me if I'm not making sense. The above looks extremely unelegant, and I wish I could express it with less unseemly words...

By the way, Enca, is your name in Quenya?