Gothmog: the poll

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Formy

And the chain of command might be such that the army would follow the orders of the second Morgul Nazgûl before following the orders of the second Nazgûl.

And surely the lieutenant of Morgul would hand over command to his superior, Khamul? Ooh, but what if Khamul wasn't there...?

Cursing Formendacil ,
TGWBS

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

And surely the lieutenant of Morgul would hand over command to his superior, Khamul? Ooh, but what if Khamul wasn't there...?

Oh, I think that Khamul was there- I'm just not convinced that the Nazgul had a chain of command, as such. Clearly, the Witchking is their leader, but I don't know if Khamul would automatically be in charge in his absence. If I recall aright (and no guarantees that I do), Khamul is merely described as the "second greatest" of the Nazgul...

Furthermore, Khamul is definitely said to be the most affected of the Nazgul by sunlight and water. And remember that the sun had just broken through when the Battle of the Pelennor began, so perhaps Khamul was a bit too queasy to take command.

And anyway, it might well be that Khamul wasn't as adequate a general as "Gothmog".

~Nazgul's Advocate -

Formendacil~

[the guy who be short]

The Encyclopedia of Arda claims:

As second-in-command to the Lord of the Nazgûl himself, he clearly had very great authority over Sauron's forces, and this has led some to suggest that Gothmog was also one of the Nazgûl. This by no means impossible, but it is notable that Frodo and Sam, who saw the Witch-king lead his armies from Minas Morgul, only observed one Nazgûl leading the host.

Which is an incredibly good point. Surely the lieutenant of Morgul would... be with the hosts of Minas Morgul? But Frowise only saw one Nazgul, The Witch-King.

Well, that seems concrete to me. I'll just sit and wait for Formendacil to come back and blow gigantic holes in it.

[CaptainofDespair]

I always assumed Khamul was off trying to lay the smackdown on Lorien...

But, I do believe Khamul would have taken over with the death of the Wiki (bless him). In any case, Gothmog is only mentioned at this one point. I am unsure (being at work, and without the books), and so I think he probably died at Pelennor. If this is the case, he is not a Nazgul, as I recall (mistakingly?) that the other eight Nazgul were with Sauron when he fell.

Now, Gothmog is seen whipping Easterlings into a frenzy upon the Wiki's death. From what I recall, probably mistakingly, Easterlings have no great love of orcs. So why would they listen to an orc commander? If not a Nazgul, he must be a man, to me.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

I always assumed Khamul was off trying to lay the smackdown on Lorien...

I think Khamul was probably in the South. I'm not sure about references to all the Nazgul being present at the Battle of the Pelennor, but I think that such is the case with regards to the Battle of the Black Gate- and if Sauron had all of them hanging around Mordor then, I think it likely (but not certain) that he had them all around for the assault on Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by TGWBS

Which is an incredibly good point. Surely the lieutenant of Morgul would... be with the hosts of Minas Morgul? But Frowise only saw one Nazgul, The Witch-King.

Well, that seems concrete to me. I'll just sit and wait for Formendacil to come back and blow gigantic holes in it.

I'll do my best.

Fellbeasts.

The Nazgul can fly- and do fly. There is no need for all of them to watch over the army on the road.

In addition, we know that Sauron had other, singular, uses for them, such as patrolling the Dead Marshes (see the chapter with that name) or investigating mysterious border incidents (right after Frodo and Sam escape the Tower of Cirith Ungol, a Nazgul appears to find out what on earth is going on).

Furthermore, this evidence falls apart on the basis of the fact that while the army may only have marched with the Witchking, there were clearly several Nazgul present at the Siege and the Battle.

[solarisa]

gothmog...the crazed i-am-the-real-dark-lord evil (and incredibly ugly) HOBBIT!!! sorry sort of a joke please just ignore me

[Alcarillo]

I've always imagined Gothmog as some sort of man, so I'm voting for Black Numenorean. Pretty much all evidence in favor of this has been said, I think. CaptainofDespair and TGWBS have good points on this. I think the only thing we all can agree on is that he was not an orc.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I haven't voted yet so let's see if I can organize my thoughts while I write and come into some proper conclusion. On the first time I read LotR Gothmog was an orc to me. I didn't really think if it was logical because I like to read the books as a story not an encyclopedia. Besides, I think Gothmog sounds very orcish. At least it doesn't sound like a name of a Ringwraith. However, after doing a little brainwork I don't believe that he was an orc.

Do you know what was a Lieutenant's place in historical battles? Was he at the front marching with the troops or was it possible that he came to the battlefield some other way (here: flying a Fell beast)? I don't know how much we can trust Frodo's observations of just one Nazgul. He fell asleep or passed out while Morgul's host was crossing a bridge. Before it Frodo seemed to be so caught in the fear of failing that I don't know if he had noticed if there had been two Nazguls instead of one.

Originally Posted by RotK, The Siege of Gondor

It was no brigand or orc-chieftain that ordered the assault upon Lord of Mordor's greatest foe.

Does this mean that usually there could have been just some extra ugly and nasty orc or man leading a charge against an enemy?

But later on almost the same sentence is repeated.

Originally Posted by Rotk, The Battle of Pelennor Fields

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor.

It is clear that this is a very important battle. Losing isn't an option. I doubt that Sauron would have trusted an orc or ordinary man to be Witch King's substitute. Of course Sauron didn't think that anything would happen to WK but still.

Originally Posted by The Battle of Pelennor Fields

Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls

Gothmog leads men. I don't think men would take orders from an orc. It seems natural that a man, a Black Numenorean if you like, would command them. Also, I think that Tolkien would have mentioned if Gothmog was a Nazgul. Like SoN said:

Never was Gothmog described in the way of the other Nazgul (striking fear into the heart of his enemies, etc.)

I'm going to vote for Black Numenorean.