Gothmog: the poll

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

I don't think it stands to reason that the good guys would name their adversary randomly after a balrog of the First Age.

Who says it was random?

Gothmog- if a non-Nazgul- stands in about the same relation to the Witchking and Sauron as the first Gothmog did to Sauron and Morgoth: a second lieutanent not entirely associated with the first, and not quite as "prominent" in the tactical command.

And if we remember the Translator's Conceit, then it is entirely possible that Gothmog is a name inserted later by Frodo/Pippin/Gondorian transcriber to name the "Lieutenant of Morgul".

~Voted for Nazgul, but not convinced,

Formendacil~

[Hookbill the Goomba]

If we look at this logically, and think, "Who would Sauron most likely put second in command to Old Witchie?" And "Who would old Witchie put as his second?" it would have to be someone weaker than the Witch King, but much stronger than anything else in his armies.
A Nazgûl is beginning to look more likely to me now, as it seems that that would be the obvious choice. Something that both Orcs and men would fear more than anything of their own kind. Orcs and men could easily rise up against a captain who was of their own kind, being the jealous type. And Look at how Sauron (and Melkor) ruled the Orcs, "In fear" keep them in line. One of their own kind would not be able to do this effectively. So, in keeping with Sauron's character, A Nazgûl would be the most likely lieutenant to the Witch King.

[Lhunardawen]

Are you all kidding? Gothmog is obviously a pink Orcish individual whose eyes show strains of mutation.

[Lhunardawen]

Seriously, though, I'm quite undecided whether he is a Black Númenorean or an Orc chieftain. He being a Nazgûl is out of the question - at least for me - since it doesn't seem to make sense for the Witch-King to have another second-in-command other than Khamûl.

Oh, and as Hookbill said, the Orcs serve Sauron in fear, plus they barely show any influence or aura of authority over their fellow bad guys.

That leaves me with the second option - that Gothmog is a Black Númenorean who rose to the heights of Sauron's army the way Grima probably did in Rohan.

Maybe Mouth and Gothmog were close buddies in Númenor?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Have you seem Grishnákh, Shagrat, and Gorbag lately?

I don't think Sauron would want an Orc being second-in-command of a major stronghold of his.

[the guy who be short]

Here's something to consider: Did Tolkien himself actually know what Gothmog was?

Think about it. There is one tiny, fleeting reference to him. It's entirely possible that Tolkien simply made up a name for a lieutenant on the spot (choosing Gothmog for fairly obvious reasons) and didn't give him any history or race.

In any case, I resent the lack of a cop-out option, Fordim. "Tolkien didn't care" would have done nicely.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In one of those old threads, someone suggests that Gothmog is Tom Bombadil.

There is also reference in those threads to the fact that Tolkien had originally written that all the Nazgul fled the Pelennor after Witchy died. Is that in HoME at all?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Seriously, though, I'm quite undecided whether he is a Black Númenorean or an Orc chieftain. He being a Nazgûl is out of the question - at least for me - since it doesn't seem to make sense for the Witch-King to have another second-in-command other than Khamûl.

Ah, but it says that Khamûl was the Nazgûl in charge of Dol Guldur- whereas Gothmog is the "Lieutenant of Morgul". And the chain of command might be such that the army would follow the orders of the second Morgul Nazgûl before following the orders of the second Nazgûl.

~As always, the Devil's Advocate -

Formendacil~

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Formy

And the chain of command might be such that the army would follow the orders of the second Morgul Nazgûl before following the orders of the second Nazgûl.

And surely the lieutenant of Morgul would hand over command to his superior, Khamul? Ooh, but what if Khamul wasn't there...?

Cursing Formendacil ,
TGWBS

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

And surely the lieutenant of Morgul would hand over command to his superior, Khamul? Ooh, but what if Khamul wasn't there...?

Oh, I think that Khamul was there- I'm just not convinced that the Nazgul had a chain of command, as such. Clearly, the Witchking is their leader, but I don't know if Khamul would automatically be in charge in his absence. If I recall aright (and no guarantees that I do), Khamul is merely described as the "second greatest" of the Nazgul...

Furthermore, Khamul is definitely said to be the most affected of the Nazgul by sunlight and water. And remember that the sun had just broken through when the Battle of the Pelennor began, so perhaps Khamul was a bit too queasy to take command.

And anyway, it might well be that Khamul wasn't as adequate a general as "Gothmog".

~Nazgul's Advocate -

Formendacil~