Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Kuruharan]

I do wonder just whether possession of the Ring would in any way be a 'match' for Mordor's armies?

Only possession and mastery. I don't recall seeing anywhere an implication that Saruman could have mastered the Ring. I only remember Gandalf as being possibly able to do it.

However, as soon as Saruman tried to master the Ring the armies of Mordor would certainly have made a beeline for Isengard...

[Kath]

Only possession and mastery. I don't recall seeing anywhere an implication that Saruman could have mastered the Ring. I only remember Gandalf as being possibly able to do it.

But if Saruman was originally higher in the Order than Gandalf then surely he should have had an equal if not higher chance of being able to master the Ring?

[Lalwendë]

Yes, the important point is whether Saruman (or anyone for that matter) could master the Ring. Saruman did possess a lot of Ring-lore, but whether it was deep or comprehensive enough to truly master the Ring is something we could only guess at - and I have to say that I think it would not have been; one of Saruman's failings is that he puts too much store in his own learning. But, it is possible that even with a little knowledge Saruman could do something. What would be most likely would be for him to cause chaos, but ultimately he would not have the mastery of the Ring.

I'm not sure whether status would have had that much to do with mastering the Ring, I get the impression that it took understanding of the Ring to master it; couldn't anyone could have the potential to understand it? And as I say above, it might not be possible for anyone apart from Sauron to truly master it (leaving Tom Bombadil aside ). This is why it has to be destroyed. It only has one owner, and that owner means to use it for evil ends. No-one else can really master it, and its true master must not be allowed to master it.

[Kuruharan]

But if Saruman was originally higher in the Order than Gandalf then surely he should have had an equal if not higher chance of being able to master the Ring?

Prestige does not necessarily reflect potency.

From the ever useful Letter #246...

Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn...Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him-being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

We have to assume that Saruman fell into the category of "Of the others" even though he too was an emissary of the Powers.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Gandalf would seem to imply otherwise in Book Three: "But Isengard cannot fight Mordor, unless Saruman first obtains the Ring."

Obviously, it's a matter of opinion as to how far that statement can be taken. It may merely mean that Saruman would never feel secure enough to challenge Sauron's might unless he first had the Ring.

EDIT: That "only Gandalf might be expected to master him" quote has been used a lot on the Downs to "prove" that only Gandalf could have mastered the Ring and thus Sauron. I will not do full battle with that argument, but will merely point out that Tolkien uses the curious phrase "might be expected," which implies that this is not a for-sure thing. I will also add that Saruman also fulfills the qualities of Gandalf that are mentioned in this passage: an emissary of the Powers, of the same kind as Sauron; and, as has already been mentioned in this thread, he was before Gandalf's fall and resurrection more powerful (or at least perceived to be more powerful) than the Grey Wizard.

[Kuruharan]

That "only Gandalf might be expected to master him" quote has been used a lot on the Downs to "prove" that only Gandalf could have mastered the Ring and thus Sauron. I will not do full battle with that argument, but will merely point out that Tolkien uses the curious phrase "might be expected," which implies that this is not a for-sure thing. I will also add that Saruman also fulfills the qualities of Gandalf that are mentioned in this passage: an emissary of the Powers, of the same kind as Sauron; and, as has already been mentioned in this thread, he was before Gandalf's fall and resurrection more powerful (or at least perceived to be more powerful) than the Grey Wizard.

So which is it? You are arguing both points.

The "might be expected" part implies that it was not a sure thing that even Gandalf would be able to defeat Sauron even if he mastered the Ring.

Let me do some added emphasis...

only Gandalf might be expected to master him.

This is a statement of the unique stature of Gandalf. I don't see how it could be taken any other way.

Please, feel free to explain why Saruman could have mastered the Ring and proved a match for Sauron. However, bear in mind that you have already mentioned part of the answer to this riddle...

(or at least perceived to be more powerful)

...and that Tolkien said elsewhere...

[Saruman], having lost any devotion to other persons or causes was open to the domination of a superior will, to its threats, and to its display of power. - The Palantiri footnote 14

For a variety of reasons, Saruman was not on Sauron's level and could not be expected to successfully contend with him.

Oh, by the way, there is also another thing relevant to this topic in this little piece...

Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it.
-The Palantiri

I think this sheds some light on the original question.

It might be that all things that become under Sauron's command eventually become under his control through his power, as with the fate of the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron, for instance. They are very much Sauron's puppets, doing exactly as he bids, and Saruman may have sensed that this was to be his doom unless he strove for the power of the Ring itself, his ''way-out" from Sauron's clutches.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

So which is it? You are arguing both points.

The "might be expected" part implies that it was not a sure thing that even Gandalf would be able to defeat Sauron even if he mastered the Ring.

Let me do some added emphasis...



This is a statement of the unique stature of Gandalf. I don't see how it could be taken any other way.

Please, feel free to explain why Saruman could have mastered the Ring and proved a match for Sauron. However, bear in mind that you have already mentioned part of the answer to this riddle...



...and that Tolkien said elsewhere...



For a variety of reasons, Saruman was not on Sauron's level and could not be expected to successfully contend with him.

Oh, by the way, there is also another thing relevant to this topic in this little piece...



I think this sheds some light on the original question.

Would Saruman then, after finding out that if he could not master the Ring, hand it back to Sauron if he ever got hold of it? Or if he could master the ring, & I believe that he did have the strength of power & will to do it, would he have enough time to counter Mordor's wave of attacks with just 10,000 uruk-hai?