Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Ar-Pharazon]

I don't think Sauron and Saruman were truly allies and more competitors using the metaphor as a chess match, where they would make moves to counter the other.

When Sauron arises in Mirkwood, Saruman goes along with the plan of the council to march on Dol Guldur and force him out. His reasoning was that it would move Sauron farther from Anduin so he couldnt freely search for the ring.

In the UT - Sauron dispatches the Ringwraiths in search of the Ring, but all they know is there is a creature named Baggins and he is in a land called the Shire. The wraiths come upon Isengard. Here the story gets muddled about what exactly happens. But the gist is that Saruman lies to the Ringwraiths about where the Ring is, he either sends them to Rohan and on the way they run into Grima who, out of fear, tells them where the shire is. The other is Saruman sends them on a scenic route north and on the way they run into one of the Ruffians whose working on the shire and he has all sorts of maps on them. Either way the wraiths discover Saruman's treachery and later Sauron learns of it.

When Pippen touches the Palantir, Sauron assumes that because a hobbit touched the stone it is the one that has the Ring and therefore Saruman has the ring. Sauron immediately dispatches a Nazgul on a fell beast who flies over the company after they leave Isengarde.

In my opinion the book's represent Saruman and Sauron as a dueller of wits. For at first Saruman hated Sauron, but after studying him he came to envy his power and respect him as a rival.

~ArP

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ar-Pharazon

When Sauron arises in Mirkwood, Saruman goes along with the plan of the council to march on Dol Guldur and force him out. His reasoning was that it would move Sauron farther from Anduin so he couldnt freely search for the ring.

This brings to mind something I've been pondering. When Saruman went along with the White Council to work to eject Sauron from Dol Guldur, was he, at that time, using the Palantir? These events took place not long before the beginning of the War of the Ring, and so we must presume that he was using it, that he may have been using it for quite a long while (he might have sought to occupy Isengard as he knew the Palantir was there). So he must have been able to cloak his thoughts and actions from Sauron at that time which begs the question why did he supposedly fall under the influence of Sauron so quickly?

From this line of thought, it is likely that he was not totally in thrall to Sauron. Saruman seemed to seek a 'third way' in Middle earth. This may have begun with him choosing to deal with the problem of the Ring and Sauron in a different way. If we think about the range of suggestions for dealing with the Ring displayed by the great and the good at the Council of Elrond, then it is obvious that the way supported by Gandalf and Elrond is not the only opinion that was held in Middle earth.

What makes Sauron different is that he thought he had the superior knowledge to deal with the Ring in another way. He seeks to discover the nature of Eru and divinity in Arda by breaking the Light, and wishes to use the knowlegde he has gained by taking over from Sauron. Compare this with Galadriel, who is also a power-seeker; when she is offered the Ring she knows that she too could take over and provide a third way, but she instead rejects this power. So I think that this is the key similarity between Saruman and Sauron - they are different characters seeking different ends, but both have such a desire for the Ring that they are prepared to do just about anything to get it.

They are both villains in the grand scheme of Middle earth, and though on the surface they have made an alliance, it is purely a surface alliance in my opinion. Their desire has got the better of them and there is simply no possibility that one can possess the Ring while the other does not have it.

I'd love to think what might have happened between the two of them had Saruman got his hands on the Ring.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A Third Way? Oo er! If only Tony Blair had long white hair.

Morm, I see what you're saying: that Saruman was effectively a puppet to Sauron and this I can accept. But what he did not do was set out with the intention of joining with Sauron, and this is what the film suggests. Saruman was more of a rebellious adolescent than a naughty child, if you'll follow me.

[Kuruharan]

I'd love to think what might have happened between the two of them had Saruman got his hands on the Ring.

After that particular war would have been over there would not have been enough left over of Saruman to spread on a meager slice of bread and call it Aruman Butter.

[Holbytlass]

Saruman stepped onto Middle-Earth on the side of good, head of the white council, follower of Eru's plan. Somewhere along the way, he wanted to be mightiest, strongest, most powerful being, which doesn't always equate to evil. I don't even see Saruman in the beginning wanting to be evil just most important. Unfortunately, at the time, the thing that could make this happen for him is the One Ring, which is evil.
In Saruman's wish for the ring, he unwisely uses the palantir to see what Sauron is up to, but that entraps himself to Sauron. And in this entrapment, both have some means to their own ends. Saruman might not like being under Sauron's thumb but at least he can use this position to his own advantage by gaining information from Sauron. And Saruman is biding his time until he can recover the ring for himself. Likewise, Sauron thinks he has an 'insider' to the white council and to his enemies.
Saruman got in over his head, and we know what happened to him because things didn't go according to his plan.

Is Saruman for or against Sauron? Saruman is for himself, but his choices cause him to be with Sauron and then under Sauron. Sauron is just as good a 'sweet talker' as Saruman, probably better, which puts enough thoughts into Saruman's head that if he joins Sauron, he could be in a better position to become mightiest, after his betrayal.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This brings to mind something I've been pondering. When Saruman went along with the White Council to work to eject Sauron from Dol Guldur, was he, at that time, using the Palantir? These events took place not long before the beginning of the War of the Ring, and so we must presume that he was using it, that he may have been using it for quite a long while (he might have sought to occupy Isengard as he knew the Palantir was there). So he must have been able to cloak his thoughts and actions from Sauron at that time which begs the question why did he supposedly fall under the influence of Sauron so quickly?

Actually, according to Gandalf, Saruman probably used the palantir for some time before he finally dared to gaze upon Barad-dur, and thus make contact with the Ithil-stone. "Then he was caught!" So he probably hadn't made contact with Sauron at the time the White Council "forced" the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Actually, according to Gandalf, Saruman probably used the palantir for some time before he finally dared to gaze upon Barad-dur, and thus make contact with the Ithil-stone. "Then he was caught!" So he probably hadn't made contact with Sauron at the time the White Council "forced" the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur.

Do you think that Sauron may have been aware that he (or someone, as he may not have been able to identify exacty who) was using the Palantir though? This would mean that Saruman was caught quickly as soon as he tried to communicate with Sauron. And there is another question - would Saruman know who held that Palantir?

I do wonder just whether possession of the Ring would in any way be a 'match' for Mordor's armies? If Saruman had got hold of it, then Sauron's minions would have swept from Mordor, laying waste to Gondor and Rohan on their way. Possibly Gandalf might have had to get involved, attempting to take it from Saruman before the horde descended... I'm not that bothered by a lot of 'what if' speculation but this is a truly frightening prospect, and it does throw Saruman's wrongdoing into sharp relief!

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

A Third Way? Oo er! If only Tony Blair had long white hair.

Something is clearly being withheld from us...

[Kuruharan]

I do wonder just whether possession of the Ring would in any way be a 'match' for Mordor's armies?

Only possession and mastery. I don't recall seeing anywhere an implication that Saruman could have mastered the Ring. I only remember Gandalf as being possibly able to do it.

However, as soon as Saruman tried to master the Ring the armies of Mordor would certainly have made a beeline for Isengard...

[Kath]

Only possession and mastery. I don't recall seeing anywhere an implication that Saruman could have mastered the Ring. I only remember Gandalf as being possibly able to do it.

But if Saruman was originally higher in the Order than Gandalf then surely he should have had an equal if not higher chance of being able to master the Ring?

[Lalwendë]

Yes, the important point is whether Saruman (or anyone for that matter) could master the Ring. Saruman did possess a lot of Ring-lore, but whether it was deep or comprehensive enough to truly master the Ring is something we could only guess at - and I have to say that I think it would not have been; one of Saruman's failings is that he puts too much store in his own learning. But, it is possible that even with a little knowledge Saruman could do something. What would be most likely would be for him to cause chaos, but ultimately he would not have the mastery of the Ring.

I'm not sure whether status would have had that much to do with mastering the Ring, I get the impression that it took understanding of the Ring to master it; couldn't anyone could have the potential to understand it? And as I say above, it might not be possible for anyone apart from Sauron to truly master it (leaving Tom Bombadil aside ). This is why it has to be destroyed. It only has one owner, and that owner means to use it for evil ends. No-one else can really master it, and its true master must not be allowed to master it.