The Point of the Unions

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kath

I know but this is still a point I don't entirely understand. Though Frodo and Sam were mortal they had special dispensation to go over the sea, same with Gimli, why not so for Arwen?

Arwen had to die because she CHOSE a mortal life. By chosing, deliberately, to remain behind with Aragorn, she was chosing a mortal life. When Aragorn died, she had nothing left that she wished to live for, and that mortality kicked in. Do you honestly think she would want to live out the Ages in Valinor- alone- when she could die and be with Aragorn again? Luthien obviously didn't...

Originally Posted by daeron

Arwen had to turn mortal becaue the last ships which can take her back were already leaving ME. The Valar were setting down the last dates for return. Arwen cannot stay till Aragorn's death and later take a ship. Remember the roads were bent forever.

Those roads had been bent for an Age already, since the Fall of Numenor. I highly doubt that THAT had anything do with it.

People on this thread seem to be forgetting that Arwen was not a full-blooded Elf. Like her brothers, the famed Half-Elven Elladan and Elrohir, she was part Man as well. And this is very important.

The reason being that it is said that the children of Elrond were offered a choice, just as he and Elros had been, to choose Man and Mortality, or Elvenkind and Eternity. Why on earth Tolkien decided to give them this choice, except for plot reasons, I don't know, but there it is: the children of Elrond could choose immortality by staying with him and returning to the Undying Lands, or they could choose mortality by remaining in Middle-earth without him.

Arwen, by reason of choosing to marry Aragorn, was choosing to remain in Middle-earth, and not return to the Undying Lands- at all. She was choosing mortality.

What Elladan and Elrohir did is not known. It is said that they lingered in Middle-earth for a time, until the death of their sister, but it is not said that they chose mortality, or that they chose to join Elrond in the West. Their fate is a story that fanfic writers dream of...

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

I think Legolas was the last known Elf to leave Middle-earth, and he had to make his own ship--by this time the Grey Havens were closed, and Círdan had already departed.

Originally Posted by daeron

Arwen was the last of the Noldor in ME. All the Noldor left with Elrond. Maybe the Noldor had a special ban or something considering the curse of Mandos.
But I still think, Aragon couldn't leave and Arwen couldn't live without him.

Tsk, tsk, you two... Can't you read?

In the "Grey Havens" it says:

Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on; for the Third Age was over, and the Days of the Rings were passed, and an end was come of the story and song of those times. With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-Earth; and among them, filled with a sadness that was yet blessed and without bitterness, rode Sam, and Frodo, and Bilbo, and the Elves delighted to honour them.

-emphasis mine

My points here are... where does it say that ALL the Noldor left with Elrond? There is no mention of Glorfindel in this chapter, nor of Erestor. And, if Arwen (who is as Sindar as she is Noldor) is to be accounted a Noldo, then Elladan and Elrohir must be remembered, and they remained in Middle-earth for a time.

Furthermore, as the above quote indicates, only MANY of the High Folk (the Noldor) left. Many does not equal all. Furthermore, the Epilogue has Sam telling Elanor that there are still many Elves in Middle-Earth, and there will be for many long years to come. In time, perhaps she would see some, maybe even a few of the lingering HIGH ELVES (paraphrasing, since I don't have the book handy).

Next, my dear Nilpaurion, where does it say that Cirdan departed? I have just read the end of the "Grey Havens" (looking for the above quote) and nowhere does it actually say that Cirdan left. On the other hand, there is a very clear statement (in the Silm, I believe) that Cirdan would not leave until the last ship set sail. Elrond's was not the last ship, and neither was Legolas'. Personally, I would say that the last ship STILL has not sailed, 5000-7000 years later... Cirdan could still be out there in some Cornish or Welsh fishing village, for all we know.

As the Grey Havens- they may or may not have been closed. I doubt it, that early on in the Fourth Age. At this point in time Rivendell was still well-populated with those left behind with Elladan and Elrohir, and recently joined by Celeborn and many of the Galadhrim. And Mirkwood was at the height of its power, and Legolas' realm would not be dead yet. Yes... I highly doubt if Cirdan had abandoned the Havens as early as when Arwen left Gondor.