The True Master.

[davem]

But isn't Sauron doing pretty well without the Ring? The destruction of the Ring is the only thing that can stop him. I'd say its damn lucky the Ring was found when it was, or Sauron would have taken over the whole of Middle-earth. All Sauron needed was for the Ring to continue to exist. Bit like those fairy stories where the ogre's heart is hidden away & so he's unstoppable. He can't be defeated in battle because he's too powerful. The hero has to find out where his heart is & destroy that in order to defeat him.

So, Sauron doesn't actually need the Ring in order to win, al he needs to do is stop anyone from destroying it - that's why he wants it back.

[daeron]

Sauron doesn't actually need the Ring in order to win, al he needs to do is stop anyone from destroying it - that's why he wants it back.

I don't think so. Will Sauron be victorious if the allied might had been the same as in the second age? Sauron was able to push to the limit just because Gondor and Rohan were sitting idle and Arnor was competely destroyed (partly because of the war of the last alliance). If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. But even in such cases, with the ring, he might have achieved a victory because this time there was no Gilgalad with Aeglos to harm him.

And does he have physical form in the 3rd age? I don't remember exactly, but there seem to be two contradicting statements in LOTR to this question.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by daeron

And does he have physical form in the 3rd age?

Yes. Gollum saw his hands:

Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering

See also:

Sauron - Physical form in The War of the Ring or not?
Frodo or the Ring?

[davem]

Originally Posted by daeron

I don't think so. Will Sauron be victorious if the allied might had been the same as in the second age? Sauron was able to push to the limit just because Gondor and Rohan were sitting idle and Arnor was competely destroyed (partly because of the war of the last alliance). If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. But even in such cases, with the ring, he might have achieved a victory because this time there was no Gilgalad with Aeglos to harm him.

But they didn't do any of that. Taking the situation as it was at the end of the Third Age Sauron had overwhelming power in military terms & the only thing that could prevent his victory was the destruction of the Ring.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I agree. The Ring was the greatest peril and at the same time the only hope for the Free Peoples of Middle-earth. If it had remained lost forever, Sauron would have reconquered Middle-earth, though not as easily or as quickly as he would have had he obtained the Ring. Also, since the Ring would not have been there to aid Bilbo and the dwarves on the Quest of Erebor, Smaug the Dragon would still have been alive, making the fight even more hopeless.

[Gurthang]

First of all, thank you Boromir for pointing out my error. I think I was mixing book and movie again.

I do agree with davem on his point about Sauron increasing in power. He was currently on the verge of conquering the last major resistence when his Ring was destroyed.

And I also really like what Boromir said about Sauron and the Ring having a 'Master-Master' relationship. It occured to me that really one cannot master the other, insomuch that they are the same. They have one will, even though the Ring seems to be more important to the survival of both.

Maybe Sauron made a mistake putting so much power into the Ring. Perhaps he could have acheived the same abilities (more commanding influence, power over other Great Rings, etc.) without putting so much of himself into the little blighter. It would have ensured that he would still have most of his power without it and kept him from being linked to its survival.

But already I can see that not working. Without putting so much into the One, he probably wouldn't have gained influence over the other Rings. Also, if the Ring had a less commanding will, it could be taken from him easier. Another might be able to master it, and then really use it against him.

Yet here's an even better thought. Perhaps he put so much of himself into the Ring that if it were ever lost(as it was) it would conquer its bearer and eventually find its way back to him(as it almost did!). That would make sense, since I've heard that the greatest fear of those who have power is losing that power. He was afraid of losing his Precious, and so made it so powerful that it was it's own saftey mechanism.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And another important thing is Sauron will be destroyed forever if the Ring is, but the Ring can survive without Sauron.

Can it? Can there be a 'without Sauron' while the Ring exists? That we will never know. But this line of thought ends with the conclusion that Sauron is indeed very much dependent on the Ring - his True Master as Gurthang put it.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Without putting so much into the One, he probably wouldn't have gained influence over the other Rings.

I can't remember if this is in The Silm or some other book, but wasn't it said that the moment Sauron wore the One and uttered those Ash nazg words, Celebrimbor realized that they were deceived and thus he hid the Three? I'm sorry, I don't have the books with me.

But my point here is, Sauron may have gotten control over the Nine and some of the Seven, but I don't think he did over the Three. It was because Sauron put so much of his will into the One that Celebrimbor knew of his treachery before he was even able to see the Three.

But yes, it's interesting that Sauron put his power into the Ring as to 'spread' his influence. Had he not done so, once others realize his dark form and substance, he could no longer sway them to his side. But through the Ring, he could use others to his purposes without them knowing it - because the Ring 'looks fair but feels foul.' Oh, the ingenuity of all this.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Sauron, without his Ring, is almost nothing. (Gurthang)

You might also say that I, without my internal organs, am nothing.

The Ring is a part of his existence, so he needs it. But not with him, exactly. Just as long as its there. (Of course the safest place it would be is right in his finger, so he would try to find it.)

As long as the the Ring exists, Sauron's will exists. That's why if someone used its powers, he would in the end replace Sauron. Sauron would still exist, albeit in a different form--like how Morgoth's will is still in Arda, despite him being without it. Thus many mini-Morgoth spring out of Middle-earth.

So you might call the relationship between Sauron and the Ring egotism, in a weird way.

All Sauron needed was for the Ring to continue to exist. (davem)

Exactly. Well, better said.

If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. (daeron)

I should just point out that the decline of the Númenóreans as a race is not due to anything foolish Men had done:

[T]he waning [of the Dúnedain] . . . proceeded, little by little . . . For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Númenóreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star.

LR Appendix A I iv--emphasis mine

The slow, steady decline of the might of the Dúnedain is a natural thing. So, they could have remained alert and assembled armies and all, but I don't think that, force-on-force, they could have prevailed upon Sauron.

And remember, the Second Age-Númenóreans also had help from Beleriandic-Wars veteran Elves (or their descendants). Gondor had no such heavy-hitting allies, except Rohan (which is, still, relatively small.)

. . . Sauron may have gotten control over the Nine and some of the Seven, but I don't think he did over the Three. It was because Sauron put so much of his will into the One that Celebrimbor knew of his treachery before he was even able to see the Three. (Lhuna)

No, daga. They came from the same blueprint--Sauron's. So they were still under the One.