LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04 - The Siege of Gondor

[Formendacil]

This is one of my favourite chapters- if only because it takes place in Minas Tirith and has a lot of memorably dramatic moments...

One thing that amuses me about the "Ernil i Pheriannath" or "Prince of the Halflings" is that Pippin is just that: he is the son and heir of the Thain of the Shire- it's crown prince, so to speak. This is a connection that really isn't made in the book until the "Scouring of the Shire", and in rereads it amused me to note that Pippin actually is the Halfling prince, even if no note is made of it, or no importance can be attached to it...

In this chapter, Denethor is often shown as heartless, and somewhat foolish to a reader who has known Gandalf for four books, in that he doesn't follow his advice, but he is shown, all the same as both sane and actively involved in the defence of his city. He may be a pessimist, but he hasn't stopped fighting.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In this chapter, Denethor is often shown as heartless, and somewhat foolish to a reader who has known Gandalf for four books, in that he doesn't follow his advice, but he is shown, all the same as both sane and actively involved in the defence of his city. He may be a pessimist, but he hasn't stopped fighting.

While I agree that Denethor still does his part in the defense of Gondor in this chapter, I'm not quite sure about him actively doing so. Being active in something is digging right into it, not minding the discomfort or the pain. What has Denethor done? Debate with Gandalf, engage in a staring contest with him , 'slave-drive' his son, sit in a meeting with other leaders, ask questions, express opinions. As far as I understand, he was not active. He could still wield a sword, and he has one, doesn't he? Why not step into the battlefield? I think in some ways this could show his cowardice - he hides behind his soldiers and lets them do all the dirty work. Definitely not the characteristic of a fighter.

[Dimturiel]

Abot Denethor not riding to battle, I think that he does it because of some kind of arrogance and of a terrible lust for ruling which he still feels in spite of the darkness that assails his city. And he tells Pippin that Sauron will not come to battle save only to triumph over him. And not only does he consider Sauron wise for doing that, but he also admits that this is the reason why he does not go to battle. Has lust for power made him so mad that he wants to be simillar to Sauron? Despite the fact that he is still able to fight, he chooses not to and sends not only his armies to death, but also his sons, just as any heartless tyrant would do. I think that this shows also how different Denethor is from Aragorn, who goes where battle is greater, together with his people.

[Kuruharan]

While in general I agree with the criticism of Denethor, it is important to understand that Denethor's reluctance to fight is not necessarily cowardice or the reflection of a tyrannical spirit.

Looked at from a charitable point of view, Denethor had a clear understanding of his situation and what was expected of him. I think a comparison with Aragorn and Theoden could be fruitful here. Both of them personally led their soldiers in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. However, what was expected of them was completely different than what was expected of Denethor. Aragorn and Theoden were both leading armies to the rescue of a besieged city. Denethor, on the other hand, was leading the defense of that besieged city. This necessarily requires that his actions be a bit more passive than Aragorn and Theoden. You will note that Theoden did not come out to fight until the last of the Battle of the Hornburg.

While Aragorn is undoubtedly very inspirin' out there in the forefront of the battle, it is very difficult for one to maintain a meaningful command function when one is out in the midst of the whacking and smashing. Maintaining his command function was obviously something that Denethor believed to be of the utmost importance, particularly in the opening more strategic phases of the campaign. While he perhaps took this too far, it is important to acknowledge that there is some sensible basis for Denethor's actions.

[davem]

As usual, I read the relevant chapters of HoM-e in preparation for this discussion, & the most interesting things were that originally Denethor was a far more sympathertic character, far more concerned for Faramir. It was also originally Faramir’s idea to go out to Osgiliath. Faramir becomes more sympathic as the story develops & Denethor becomes more of a ‘monster’. This dynamic is interesting, as it seems that Denethor becomes more & more a ‘shadow’ cast by Faramir. The more ‘saintly’ the son becomes, the more ‘demonic’ the father is made as a result. I wonder about this, as we seem to see this a lot in Tolkien’s work - the use of ‘light’ & ‘dark’ twins - Gandalf/Saruman, Frodo/Gollum, being the ones that spring most to mind. They seem to serve as alternate ‘options.’

The other interesting idea was that originally The WK was to have been one of Gandalf’s ‘Order’ from Numenor, & Gandalf was afraid of confronting him.

Onwards...

We have a kind of repeat of earlier events with Pippin & Beregond returning to their seat in the embrasure, looking down on the Pelennor. The mood is darker, more desperate, but there is hope in the appearance on the field of Gandalf, driving back the Nazgul.

The Faramir/Gandalf/Denethor dynamic is interesting. Faramir seeks to do the right thing, but clearly he looks to Gandalf to discover (or confirm) what that ‘right’ thing is, not to his father. One can see where Denethor’s jealousy comes from - & it clearly is in large part simply that - jealousy of Gandalf who seems to have usurped his own fatherly role in Faramir’s mind. Denethor seems to feel he has lost a second son. He feels betrayed by Faramir & reacts with anger, lashing out at his son.

Its easy to forget that Denethor is a lonely old man. Boromir is dead, (as is Finduilas, let us not forget) he feels that all he has loved & worked for is about to be swept away, Faramir is all he had left & now even he has turned away from him. Faramir has betrayed not simply his position in the Gondorian hierarchy, but his lonely old father. Denethor is now isolated in his despair, with no-one to reach out to, yet he has responsibility. One feels this inner conflict. It will come to a head later in the chapter when Faramir lies at death’s door. That is the final blow, the last straw, that breaks him. All is lost, & the last, most precious thing that he has lost, he cast away himself.

But what of Faramir’s role in this? Did he try hard enough to understand & be there for his father? Did he allow his ‘ideals’ to seperate him from one who desperately needed him? Of course, he was put in an impossible situation by his father. He was ultimately faced with betraying what he knew was right or betraying the one who needed him most. Could Denethor have made it easier for himself & his son? Probably not. He backed himself into a corner & refused to come out, demanding rather that Faramir come in & stand beside him. Denethor is a tragic figure by the end & that end must be in line with high tradgedy. His ending will take on a mythic, old world dimension - he will die ‘like the heathen kings of old (‘Heathen’ is an interesting choice of word here, as originally it was used derogatively, refering to those believed to be ignorant country dwellers. Denethor is rejecting ‘civilisation’ & its values.) He, in the end, rejects his living son, the one who has ‘betrayed’ him, & prefers over him his dead son. because the dead may be built up in fantasy into the ideal. Denethor reverts into a fantasy world because there, at least, can be found someone who loves him.

Gandalf comes across as a little ‘callous’. He has his mission - the defeat of Sauron & the return of the King - to achieve, but it seems as if he has decided that Denethor is ‘surplus to requirements’. We see little kindness or compassion towards Denethor, or even an attempt to understand his position. If we didn’t know him as ‘an old man in a batered hat’ we might have a far less positive view of him, based on his behaviour to Denethor. Its almost as if his treatment of him is designed to provoke the response in Denethor that he gets. Gandalf has said he also is a ‘steward’, & we can perhaps see a similarity between him & Denethor. If Denethor will spend even his sons to achieve victory over Sauron, Gandalf will clearly spend Denethor to achieve the same end. Denethor has clearly percieved this. His desperate cri de cour, his standing & showing his armour & sword is, on one level, the attempt of an old man not to appear useless.

The horror of the events if the Siege bring us, as well as the inhabitants of Minas Tirith, to the point of despair. The heads of the fallen are flung into the city. The lower circle errupts in flame & finally the great Gate is broken. The use of the name ‘Grond’ is interesting, because for those who have only read LotR it means little, but for those who have read the Silmarillion it will call to mind Fingolfin’s battle with Morgoth. This is another link with events of the long distant past. Sauron clearly chose the name because he wished to use that memory to cow the defenders, but it may actually have inspired them with the memory of Fingolfin’s desperate courage.

Back to Denethor & Faramir. They come to the tombs, & are greeted by a ‘porter’. Whether this was intentional or not I couldn’t help but think back to Theoden’s story of the old man sitting before the Paths of the Dead. Merry has told Theoden that he will follow him even on those Paths. Pippin follows Denethor on similar Paths here. The dead lie in state, but Denethor will not follow them & become like them, he will burn. This is strange in a way - he is rejecting what they stood for while at the same time choosing to die among them.

Here Beregond comes into his own, & goes, at Pippins instigation to do the deed for which we will always remember him - his desperate defence of Faramir. He will disobey one of the ‘sacred’ commandments & draw sword & shed blood in the Hallows. How slose is his relationship with Faramir to that of Sam to Frodo. He is prepared to lay down his life in defense of his ‘Master’. The similarity of his desperate defense against ‘an old patient spider’ & Sam’s defense of Frodo against Shelob is too close, maybe, to be dismissed.

And finally, we have the great confrontation of Gandalf & the Witch King. ‘Do you not know Death when you see it?’ asks the WK. Gandalf no doubt does - he has seen death & passed through it. It is the WK himself who doesn’t know Death - yet. He dismisses the presence & the threat of the WK, because he knows what awaits the WK & his Master. When the WK says ‘This is my hour’ he knows not how truly he speaks - this is his hour - his hour of greatest ‘victory’ - he’ll never come this close to it again - but it is also his last hour, the hour when he himself will know Death. Irony or what? Its interesting that when he casts back his hood he is seen to have no ‘head’. He wears a crown, but he has no head, no face, no mind, of his own. He has lost his self & become faceless, without identity. He is ‘Death’ - the opposite of Life. In place of a ‘self’ there is a void. This is true ‘Evil’ not a dynamic, ‘living’ thing, Here is no Miltonic ‘rebel’ defying the Powers of Life & Goodness, but an emptiness, a ‘no-thing-ness’ .

And finally, we hear the Horns & experience the eucatastrophe. Hope comes, Light shines in the darkness, & the tide turns....

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

Gandalf comes across as a little ‘callous’. He has his mission - the defeat of Sauron & the return of the King - to achieve, but it seems as if he has decided that Denethor is ‘surplus to requirements’. We see little kindness or compassion towards Denethor, or even an attempt to understand his position. If we didn’t know him as ‘an old man in a batered hat’ we might have a far less positive view of him, based on his behaviour to Denethor. Its almost as if his treatment of him is designed to provoke the response in Denethor that he gets. Gandalf has said he also is a ‘steward’, & we can perhaps see a similarity between him & Denethor. If Denethor will spend even his sons to achieve victory over Sauron, Gandalf will clearly spend Denethor to achieve the same end. Denethor has clearly percieved this. His desperate cri de cour, his standing & showing his armour & sword is, on one level, the attempt of an old man not to appear useless.

A very interesting point there...

To Theoden, Gandalf is kindly and works to save him- even despite some probably not all that sympathetic treatment in the past. He advocates forgiveness of both Gollum and Saruman.

What has Denethor done to be so callously dismissed?

Clearly, Gandalf and Denethor have a history, and both really don't care for each other that much. One has to wonder just how much HAS happened between them. Because we cannot blame Gandalf's callousness on being busy (he was just as busy in Edoras), or on giving him up as lost (I mean, Gollum!).

Now, obviously, Gandalf the Wizard is just as human in his emotions as Beregond, a Dunlending, or Aule-who-will-not-speak-of-the-Noldor. But one has to wonder WHAT happened...

[Kuruharan]

Gandalf comes across as a little ‘callous’. He has his mission - the defeat of Sauron & the return of the King - to achieve, but it seems as if he has decided that Denethor is ‘surplus to requirements’. We see little kindness or compassion towards Denethor, or even an attempt to understand his position.

Denethor was unwilling to perform his function. His function was to step aside when the king returned.

(I would open the old can o' worms about exactly how legitimate Aragorn's claim actually was, but perhaps this is not the best place for it...)

See, Gandalf understood Denethor quite well. Denethor's impulse was selfish. He wanted the prestige and power of being the ruler. If the king comes back he can't have that anymore. This is hardly an attitude that we can expect Gandalf to sympathize with.

(This is perhaps a hard view of Denethor's job, and I seem to be wildly alternating from attacking Denethor to defending him and back again...)

I also think that you perhaps overstate the return of the king as being part of Gandalf's mission. While it would be nice, I don't think Gandalf (in a "mission from the Valar" sense) considered it vital. His job was to defeat Sauron. He was using Aragorn as much as he was using Denethor. Obviously things would turn out a little better (if you want to look at it that way) for Aragorn than Denethor under this arrangement. I guess it is true that Gandalf was not particularly concerned about that.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I also think that you perhaps overstate the return of the king as being part of Gandalf's mission. While it would be nice, I don't think Gandalf (in a "mission from the Valar" sense) considered it vital. His job was to defeat Sauron. He was using Aragorn as much as he was using Denethor. Obviously things would turn out a little better (if you want to look at it that way) for Aragorn than Denethor under this arrangement. I guess it is true that Gandalf was not particularly concerned about that.

I think you're probably right about it not being a part of his mission. After all, Gandalf was around for a thousand years BEFORE either line of the kings died out. If it had been a part of his mission, I imagine that he and Saruman (he was a goodguy then, remember) could have restored the line of the kings a fair bit earlier, or supported Arvedui's claim. Or something...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I also think that you perhaps overstate the return of the king as being part of Gandalf's mission. While it would be nice, I don't think Gandalf (in a "mission from the Valar" sense) considered it vital. His job was to defeat Sauron. He was using Aragorn as much as he was using Denethor. Obviously things would turn out a little better (if you want to look at it that way) for Aragorn than Denethor under this arrangement. I guess it is true that Gandalf was not particularly concerned about that.

I think Gandalf's principal 'mission' was to help the free people's of Middle-earth to overthrow Sauron, but the ascendancy of Aragorn to the throne of Gondor will bring peace & stability to Middle-earth, & provide a strong foundation for Men's domination of the fourth & subsequent ages. The return of the True King was, I think, something Gandalf realised would be necessary. In Aragorn & Arwen the bloodlines of Men, Elves & Maiar are united & passed on through the ruling house. It is the ideal situation to leave Middle-earth in. I think Gandalf has realised this & this has become his goal - no doubt discussed with Elrond.

In short, I don't think Aragorn's succession is an 'optional extra' or merely a 'nice touch' to bring about a happy ending as far as Gandalf is concerned. He may not have been sent by the Valar with that specific goal in mind, but I think as time went on he would have come to include it in his mission......

IMO.....