Elendil's Sword and Sauron's Ring

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What would Elrond know....

Seriously though, that's what seems righteous to me Firefoot, but the way it's written in Of the Rings of Power in The Silmarillion might make it seem that it was the severing of the finger which killed.

Isildur took the Ring, and then Sauron was vanquished.

As much as I'd love a detailed call of the 'match' it's probably not going to happen now. Barring any time-travel.

[drigel]

I agree Eomer - it is muddled as to what actually happened. It seemed (to me)the ultimate contest took place without their weapons. The appendixes left me the impression for the longest time that it was a wrestling match. ".....Sauron was thrown down..", and ".....his body was burned by the heat (of Sauron).."

Nothing left to do after your spear and sword break I suppose. Elendil and Gil-Galad looking at each other: "OK - you take him high and I take him low.."

Cowboy up and throw down in the dust of Gorgoroth

[Formendacil]

Here's my take...

Sauron was still somewhat "weak" from getting drowned in Numenor. Not drowned as in "dead", but drowned in that he needed to recreate a totally new body- which we are told (I seem to recall) is a rather draining experience. It's only about a hundred years later, a blink of an eye for a Maia, and so Sauron is still not at his full power.

Neither is his army, which is why Gil-galad and Elendil are able to smash through with the Last Alliance, and make it right up to him, face-to-face, and take him on. Still not at his full power, and vulnerable to weapons in his physical form (think Glorfindel and the Balrog), Sauron is stabbed/sliced by the two High Kings, thereby killing his weaker physical body. This initiates a shutdown as his body "explodes", which kills Elendil and Gil-galad in the process (doesn't it say that Gil-galad was killed by the heat of Sauron's hand somewhere...). Elendil falls down on Narsil, breaking it.

So Elendil is dead, Gil-galad is dead, and Sauron's body is vanquished, leaving him extremely vulnerable. It is at this time that Isildur comes up. He sees his father dead, and the hot, dead body of Sauron. He takes the hilt-shard of Narsil, and cuts off Sauron's ringfinger as a sign of victory, and takes the Ring for himself. Then Elrond and Cirdan show up and try to talk him into throwing it away, etc, etc.

Now, this is just my understanding/theory as to how it all happened. I may as well toss it out, and see what happens.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I've seen numerous references to the slaying of Gil-Galad being due to the heat of Sauron's hand. Could anyone tell us where that's from?

(If it's from the Sil and I've missed it I'll just die of embarrassment.. . )

[Lalwendë]

Maybe when Gandalf warns Aragorn that he cannot harm Sauron through his swordsmanship he is saying more to him than simply telling him it is not advisable. Aragorn is possibly very aware of his own fighting abilities, while Gandalf is keenly aware that Sauron is a very different foe to another Man or an Orc; he is warning Aragorn that sheer swordsmanship is not enough to rid Middle earth of this particular foe, certainly this time around. I would imagine that even if someone were able to get close enough to Sauron to even try to put a blade through him, it might be rather like trying to cut fire.

In addition, it might be that as Narsil was broken, when it was reforged as Anduril it effectively became a different weapon? If it was 'wound about with spells' like the Barrow-blades, would those spells also have been broken when it fell beneath Elendil? To me, it seems that Isildur used Narsil on Sauron after his body had fallen, and that his act was not the act which destroyed Sauron's physical form.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, if swords can't get the job done then, presumably, neither would fisticuffs.

But if you're suggesting that to fight Sauron physically includes a great mental struggle as well, and that this is where the important battle lies, then I might like where you're coming from.

[Lalwendë]

Well, I think Gandalf was underlining just how important it was to destroy the Ring. Especially at the Council of Elrond, every option is examined and pulled to pieces until the only one left is that someone destroys the Ring at Mount Doom.

Sauron would be impossible to get close to physically, certainly for a Man (though I wonder if Frodo and Sam might have managed it?) and he would have been canny enough not to emerge onto the battlefield after his experience at the end of the Second Age. He had minions to do his dirty work, like all good Dark Lords. The only option apart from destroying the Ring would have been to struggle mentally with him, and that would have been incredibly risky; as shown he managed to destroy the minds of both Saruman and Denethor.

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I've seen numerous references to the slaying of Gil-Galad being due to the heat of Sauron's hand. Could anyone tell us where that's from?

(If it's from the Sil and I've missed it I'll just die of embarrassment.. . )

I just stumbled upon the answer to your question by accident. It's in LotR, during the Council of Elrond, in Isildur's scroll:

"The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;"

It's just slipped in there - no wonder I haven't seen it before.

And I understand now how you can read the passages in the CoE and the Sil otherwise... I was in a hurry when I wrote my last post. I still think that's how it happened though.

Luthien defeated Sauron without any sword.

Luthien was also half-Maia and lived in the Elder Days. She also had certain aids: her cloak of drowsiness, and Huan's help - Huan was probably more helpful than a sword could have been.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

*sheepish look*

Thanks for that Firefoot. Right in front of me...

[Elladan and Elrohir]

As for the Gandalf "no weapon any of you have can hurt me" quote, which was mentioned earlier in the thread: I think he can truthfully say that because of his enhanced power that was granted to him for his return. Apparently, he becomes invincible to weaponry.

Also, to answer another point mentioned earlier, I regret I don't know which one, but Tolkien did write in one of his Letters, "While he [Sauron] wore it [The Ring], his power was actually enhanced..."

And finally to discuss the main point of this topic:

I had always assumed that Sauron was essentially killed by Elendil and Gil-galad as he did the same to them. I still do, though my belief in that isn't as strong as it was. The word "overthrown" appears to be operative ("They overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the doing"), and I take it to mean that they literally overthrew him. Whether they "killed" him or not, he was knocked over and at least temporarily immobilized. It was then that Isildur cut the Ring off his finger.

I don't see how Tolkien could call Sauron "overthrown" if he was still swinging his mace (or whatever) around and killing people left and right, as the movie depicts. I think he was literally overthrown.

My $0.02.