The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually ever do that.



Because they don't have anything to do with that? There is some amount of difference between living beyond somthing and changing it to suit your needs. How exactly does a person go about changing a performance that he wasn't at? Even if he was at it, how exactly would he change the performances of all of the other people playing for themselves? The first question is more important, think about it more.

They don't change it 'to suit their needs' in the sense you imply - they just do what they do & because they aren't bound by it they change it. The performances of all the others are affected because of the unexpected changes introduced by Men.

You seem to be implying that Arda is 'nothing but' the Music made manifest - I don't read it that way. Again I ask, why bother creating the world at all if its to be nothing but a literal manifestation of what was already set out?

[burrahobbit]

You seem to be implying that Arda is 'nothing but' the Music made manifest - I don't read it that way.

'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'

Again I ask, why bother creating the world at all if its to be nothing but a literal manifestation of what was already set out?

I don't know, why?

I get to ask a question again too. How exactly does a person change the performance of a song if he wasn't in the room with the other people playing? How can I change what an orchestra does in New York if I live in Oklahoma? Even more, how would I change that orchestra in New York if it happened 50 years before I was born?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I get to ask a question again too. How exactly does a person change the performance of a song if he wasn't in the room with the other people playing? How can I change what an orchestra does in New York if I live in Oklahoma? Even more, how would I change that orchestra in New York if it happened 50 years before I was born?

A live performance can be changed by one of the participants. Think Jazz. The Music was the 'composition', the creation/manifestation of Arda is the performance of that composition. Not all the performers may have been around when the piece was composed, but as long as they are around when it is being played they can alter it - especially if they have the express permission of the composer/conductor to do that very thing.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

A live performance can be changed by one of the participants. Think Jazz. The Music was the 'composition', the creation/manifestation of Arda is the performance of that composition. Not all the performers may have been around when the piece was composed, but as long as they are around when it is being played they can alter it - especially if they have the express permission of the composer/conductor to do that very thing.

A very apt analogy, davem! As a musician, I know there are a number of ways a performer can make a composition his very own, unique piece: by the interpretation, even within the given boundaries of tempo, volume, accents etc. given by the composer, as those elements are normally variables, rarely absolutes, thus subject to individual differences; by addition, putting in grace notes, double octaves, additional chord notes, etc., which do not change the character of the basic music but do add richness and interest; and by improvisation - both 'classical' composers and modern ones, such as in jazz, as davem has mentioned, specifically allow and/or require a performer to change the melody, even making up his own, in parts of a previously written composition. There is also the possibility of making a secondary composition of a previous piece of music, which would be an arrangement or variations, which would again be subject to varying interpretations.

Enough music theory, although I think it's appropriate and helpful to apply these principles to Tolkien's idea of the music of creation. Perhaps we could see various peoples of Middle-earth as performers of various styles. The Elves would be the musicians who attempt to find out what the original instrumentation was, to play on authentic historical instruments, using the precise tempo as far as can be determined. Men would be the improvisers and arrangers, having heard the original melodies but adding and changing them in a way to suit themselves - and the taste of their times, perhaps, as modern musicians might do.

Where would that put Saruman then? Was he trying to rearrange the music to fit his own taste and desires? Did he perhaps think that he could change it all the way through to the very end? (Sauron would have thought similarly.) And yet he managed only a brief stanza, that peters out and gives way to the main theme again after all.

I don't know why I haven't thought of applying the principles of music theory to this topic before - it's a logical application! There's food for thought here, and I may come back with more later.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

Where would that put Saruman then? Was he trying to rearrange the music to fit his own taste and desires? Did he perhaps think that he could change it all the way through to the very end? (Sauron would have thought similarly.) And yet he managed only a brief stanza, that peters out and gives way to the main theme again after all.

This is the one of the most interesting questions, because according to Ainulindale, not being a Man, he couldn't change the Music ('which is as fate to all things else'). It would seem that Saruman's fall stems from his apparent conviction that he could change the Music in Eru's despite. He couldn't - not because Eru wouldn't let him, but because only Men have that power - one with their gift of mortality. Clearly he could have repented & accepted his part in the Music, ie his fate, but what he could not do was change his fate. Why did he think he could? As one of the Ainur he would actually have heard Eru tell Melkor in no uncertain terms that None may change the Music in His despite. He would also have known that only Mortal Men ('doomed to die') were not bound by the Music & only they had the freedom to act beyond the restrictions imposed on all others by it.

Obviously, he could concieve of himself changing the Music - he had freedom of thought - but he also knew the Rules - that he couldn't actually act outside the Music. Was it simple jealousy of Men? I wonder about the Istari's mission - they came to help in the fight against Sauron, but they were restricted by the Music, which bound them & limited their freedom of action.

The whole problem is that Tolkien has made those statements about Men's unique freedom within Middle -earth. If he hadn't it would make everything so simple - 'all are fated to act out the Music, no-one has free will. It was all pre-ordained. But he didn't - into this world of absolute predestination he introduces Men & their 'gift' of mortality/freedom of action (under Eru). Yet, he states unequivocally that all but Men are bound by the Music, & cannot act beyond it. Yet, if Men can change the Music (Eru willing, of course) then this 'pre-destination' which controls & determines the fate of Valar, Maiar & Elves, can change. Thus, we have the apparently crazy situation of Valar, Maiar & Elves having an inescapable destiny to do 'X' until[ the moment that Men act beyond the Music, alter it, & thus change the 'inescapable' destiny of Valar, Maiar & Elves

So, I hear some ask, why not just take the simplest option - there is no free will for anyone in M-e? They're all just 'robots' walking along pre-destined paths - men as well as all the other races. Because Tolkien has made it clear that Men may act beyond the Music, & we can't ignore that. Besides, it would remove any meaning in the tales. Frodo was just a robot. There's no point asking why he took the Ring, & why in the end he couldn't cast it into the fire - he was just a robot acting out his programming. None of the courageous, self sacrificing, acts in the tales have any value because the people who did them were just robots who couldn't do anything else.

The other alternative is that alll the races had freedom of action - not just Men. Problem there is that it makes the whole of the Ainulindale pointless. My take on it is that the freedom of Men to act beyond the Music is a consequence of their mortality - in that because their spirits are not permanently bound to the stuff of Arda like the Elves, or by solemnly binding agreement never to leave it till the Music they sang is played out (the Valar). It is the stuff of Arda - matter/hroa - which is bound by the Music. The minds/spirits of beings are not, so freedom of thought is possible for all beings, but freedom of action is curtailed in Valar, Maiar & Elves because they are bound within the Circles of the World. It is the different relationship of fea to hroa in Men which enables their freedom to act beyond the Music, & to alter it (though not in Eru's despite.

[burrahobbit]

My point has been missed again. You can add to and change the performance if you are actually present at it, but let's keep in mind here that this isn't just The Music, and it isn't The Music of Men or The Music of Elves, it is the Music of the Ainur: The Ainulindale. The Children of Iluvatar, being born after the creation of the world, were not present at its creation. Whatever actions Men may take are outside of the bounds of the Music, but they do not change the Music. The position of Men may be unique, but they are not so potent as to change the very fabric of the work of the gods.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But Eru changed the Music with his new theme. Could it be that this new theme "inserts" the changes in the Music of the Ainur he intended for Men to do?

Of course, this silly post introduces the battle of prescience and predestination.

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

My point has been missed again. You can add to and change the performance if you are actually present at it, but let's keep in mind here that this isn't just The Music, and it isn't The Music of Men or The Music of Elves, it is the Music of the Ainur: The Ainulindale. The Children of Iluvatar, being born after the creation of the world, were not present at its creation. Whatever actions Men may take are outside of the bounds of the Music, but they do not change the Music. The position of Men may be unique, but they are not so potent as to change the very fabric of the work of the gods.

And the Numenorean's assault on Valinor? Was that event, & the changing of the shape of the World which followed it - a direct result of Eru's intervention - predicted in the Music or not? If it was then how could the Numenoreans be held morally accountable for their actions? If it wasn't & was a result of their freedom to act beyond the Music then it shows that Men can change the Music, even to the extent of changing the world itself...