The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

:
Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.(Ainulindale)

:
But Illuvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and ie said, These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Illuvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. (Of the Beginning of Days)

Quod erat demonstrandum?

[burrahobbit]

So, bearing those quotes in mind, where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music? And what exactly does that have to do with Saruman?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

So, bearing those quotes in mind, where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

If the Music was fixed before the creation of Arda & could not be changed, why create it at all? If there is no freedom to alter the Music the whole thing becomes a pointless exercise. The Music is actually a 'living' process - it changes, alters, as it must because otherwise Arda has no purpose, everyone in it is a robot, & so no-one can be held accountable, because no-one is free to act. Men's freedom actually liberates all the races to an extent, by changing the Music & so changing the fate of all the others.

Or, in short, why else would Tolkien mention Men's freedom to alter the Music if it never happened? Man's free will was central to Tolkien's thinking, both as a writer & as a man - its a central tenet of his faith. Men & Elves were not part of the Music - they sprang from the mind of Illuvatar alone, & so must have had some purpose which was not included in the Music as originally sung. The Elves were made to live 'eternally' within Arda & so were bound to its fate, Men were not so bound & that's why they die - because in them fea & hroa are not one - ie death is one with the gift of mortality - the one is a corollary of the other.

Given the statements I quoted, what makes you think they didn't alter the Music?

Or if you're simply asking where I got the idea from - it was from reading Flieger's Splintered Light, wherein she discusses this idea in depth...

What it has to do with Saruman is that Saruman, being a Maiar, had no option but to play the part assigned to him by 'fate' (ie the Music), but he had the freedom to choose how he would do the things he had to do. But the Music was changed by Men's freedom of choice & action - for instance by the choice of Isildur to take rather than destroy the Ring.....

[burrahobbit]

why else would Tolkien mention Men's freedom to alter the Music if it never happened?

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually ever do that.

Given the statements I quoted, what makes you think they didn't alter the Music?

Because they don't have anything to do with that? There is some amount of difference between living beyond somthing and changing it to suit your needs. How exactly does a person go about changing a performance that he wasn't at? Even if he was at it, how exactly would he change the performances of all of the other people playing for themselves? The first question is more important, think about it more.

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually ever do that.



Because they don't have anything to do with that? There is some amount of difference between living beyond somthing and changing it to suit your needs. How exactly does a person go about changing a performance that he wasn't at? Even if he was at it, how exactly would he change the performances of all of the other people playing for themselves? The first question is more important, think about it more.

They don't change it 'to suit their needs' in the sense you imply - they just do what they do & because they aren't bound by it they change it. The performances of all the others are affected because of the unexpected changes introduced by Men.

You seem to be implying that Arda is 'nothing but' the Music made manifest - I don't read it that way. Again I ask, why bother creating the world at all if its to be nothing but a literal manifestation of what was already set out?

[burrahobbit]

You seem to be implying that Arda is 'nothing but' the Music made manifest - I don't read it that way.

'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'

Again I ask, why bother creating the world at all if its to be nothing but a literal manifestation of what was already set out?

I don't know, why?

I get to ask a question again too. How exactly does a person change the performance of a song if he wasn't in the room with the other people playing? How can I change what an orchestra does in New York if I live in Oklahoma? Even more, how would I change that orchestra in New York if it happened 50 years before I was born?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I get to ask a question again too. How exactly does a person change the performance of a song if he wasn't in the room with the other people playing? How can I change what an orchestra does in New York if I live in Oklahoma? Even more, how would I change that orchestra in New York if it happened 50 years before I was born?

A live performance can be changed by one of the participants. Think Jazz. The Music was the 'composition', the creation/manifestation of Arda is the performance of that composition. Not all the performers may have been around when the piece was composed, but as long as they are around when it is being played they can alter it - especially if they have the express permission of the composer/conductor to do that very thing.