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#1 | ||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
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Confound this rep rule, but I just want to say that those thoughts are really good. ![]() |
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#2 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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The Red Arrow
All I can find is this - (which is what I'd already come up with myself on searching through UT - there's no mention in HoMe) I think, though, that the account in Cirion & Eorl was written after LotR, so the question that springs to mind is, was this story already in Tolkien's mind when he wrote of the Red Arrow in LotR, or was it based on something else, & the later account 'invented' as an explanation within the secondary world? It is certainly an 'odd' symbol to use - how old was the Red Arrow? There seems to be a history behind it which Theoden was aware of. He only had to see it in Hirgon's hand to understand exactly what it meant. It seems from Theoden's words that it is a sign of absolute desperation on Gondor's part - 'Has it indeed come to that?' It seems that it declares Gondor to be in extremis, at the absolute point of complete destruction. Certainly, Hirgon could have told Theoden that Gondor was in deep trouble, but it seems that Denethor felt that would not be enough & he had to send the Red Arrow as well. It does seem that it had a very powerful symbolic value, & to be calling on the Rohirrim to fullfil an oath. This is interesting in the light of the events of this & the previous chapter - oaths run through both, ones held & ones forsworn. In passing, I also wonder what the 'mark' painted on the arrow was. |
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#3 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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Who is that cloaked and masked stranger, returning to the CbC...??
The one point I must make about this chapter is how it demonstrates more than any other the 'place' of Merry in the overall structure. Frodo and Sam are off on their moral/emotional/psychic/psychological journey while Pippin is 'bearing witness' to the passing of the old world in the form of Denethor. They are the more passive members of the hobbits, insofar as they are 'along for the ride' as it were, with Frodo and Sam placing their hope and faith in providence (although still struggling mightily on their own) and following the guidance of Gollum. Pippin, on the other hand, while at the centre of things, is the companion of Gandalf and acting as a pair of hobbitish eyes onto the great events.
But here, Merry comes into his own. We talked about him and his remarkable character a lot in the early chapters, but it's not until now, I think, that he steps forward as the most truly representative hobbit of them all. Two lines stand out for me: Quote:
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But the key point to make about Merry here is that it is Aragorn who has left orders that he be armed for battle -- hugely important. Frodo and Sam were 'outfitted' for their trek into Mordor by Faramir: a good guy to have as your armourer, but he's no Aragorn! Pippin has been put into arms by Denethor -- poor, pure, foolish, great-hearted Pippin, caught up as usual in circumstances far beyond his control and understanding, but doing his level best in them. Of all the hobbits, it's only Merry who recieves his arms from Aragorn -- it's ironic that he is clad in armour and arms of Rohan, of course, but it was Aragorn who told Eowyn to make some arrangement for him. I find this so hugely important insfoar as Aragorn has clearly had an almost Gandalf-moment of prescience or awareness as he has 'seen' in some way that Merry will both need and earn his arms. Aragorn is 'aware' on some level of the Providential Plan that will have Eowyn and Merry together at the Pelennor to destroy the witch king. I don't think it's a mistake that there is also talk in this chapter about the shadowy host that passed through dunharrow to meet with Aragorn. These two acts of meeting the ghost army and arming Merry are Aragorns' first tangible acts of Kingship over Gondor: he has certainly been acting like a King before, but these are the first acts OF the King as he commands the fealty of those who swore their oath to Isildur, and sets in motion the events that will lead to Merry's heroics in defense of Minas Tirith. And all Faramir does for Frodo and Sam is give them some nuts, some walking sticks and some really obvious advice...Aragorn is way cooler than that!
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#4 | ||
Dead Serious
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There's also, to my mind, a similar theme between this chapter and the part of The Hobbit immediately before the Battle of the Five Armies. In both cases we have hobbits (as noted, of a very similar nature) all alone and caught up in a large buildup towards war, over which they have little or no control. Both want to do something, but are concerned that they are too small or unimportant.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#5 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Theoden will lead his warriors into battle, but he does not expect to lead them from battle. That is to be Eomer's task. Of course, the 'formal' declaration will take place on the fields of the Pelennor, when Theoden orders that Eomer be given his banner: Quote:
Of course, what his words here also show is that he has come to terms with the loss of Theodred. His son & heir is dead, but his people cannot be left bereft of a leader. I can't help but recall that not so long since he had had Eomer 'confined to quarters' & wonder whether that wasn't an act of 'denial' as regards the death of his son. Now, in these few words, we see that a major change has taken place in Theoden's attitude to his nephew. He has been released from Grima's 'spell' & can live (& die) a free man, knowing his people will be in good hands. |
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#6 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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That makes me wonder who he might have had in mind when he was under Grima's influence? Surely not Grima? This could have been behind Saruman's strategies - a man under his own influence in power, or civil war. Even so, I think that maybe the Kingship would have been beyond Grima's hopes, but he may have been pursuing Eowyn in the hope that she would be named heir. After marriage and her taking the throne, he would then have sought to influence her and effectively be ruler himself. That would have led to an interesting tale, given the hidden strengths and depth of determination that she possessed.
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Gordon's alive!
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#7 | |||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
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I read the chapter again, and what kept on reverberating in my mind is Merry and the Paths of the Dead. Quote:
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But then again, was he really driven by Theoden, or by the fear that he would be left behind alone? Was he really as selfless as I think he was, or was he just in pursuit of his own glory? In any case, he did go on his own Paths of the Dead, as we'll see later on in the story. |
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#8 | |
Dead Serious
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Certainly, after Theodred's death, Eomer was the logical heir, as both Theoden's nephew and an experienced Marshal of the Mark. But was he Theoden's only nephew... I wonder.... Remember, Theoden had FOUR sisters. I think it very unlikely that only Theodwyn married. Statistically, I would guess that three of them married. In all likelihood, Rohirrim probably having the large families typical of a pre-modern society, Theoden had a couple more nephews, who were probably a fair bit older than Eomer (the son of the youngest sister), and who may have had grown sons themselves. Of course, Eomer and Eowyn have a special status in that they were raised by Theoden and were essentially Theodred's adopted siblings. Still, perhaps there WERE other nephews out there. I think it likely. Certainly, it would explain why Theoden would feel the need to declare Eomer his heir. If Eomer were the only nephew, he would naturally fall in place after Theodred's death, nephew or no.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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