Using Shelob, and choice of cliffhangers

[Gurthang]

1. Putting Shelob in RotK made that movie long too long.

2. Taking her out of TTT made that movie boring.

She should have been in TTT.


BUT, just to be devil's advocate, I have to point out that the really cool Deagol-Smeagol intro would not have worked. With Frodo in Cirith Ungol and Sam headed that way, Gollum is nowhere near. It would not have made sense.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

BUT, just to be devil's advocate, I have to point out that the really cool Deagol-Smeagol intro would not have worked.

So then you put it where they originally planned to put it: after Frodo calls him "Sméagol." Or would that make the movie too long? If we're shortening Helm's Deep, and putting Shelob's Liar in TTT, but not making it so much like it's a mini-horror flick, would that be too long? Maybe 2 hrs, and 15 mins, evening out TTT and RotK?

[Shelob]

" I'm not saying that Sam screams out "Oh no! THEY'VE CAPTURED MR FRODO!!!" and then a big THE END flashes up on screen." ~Eomer of the Rohirrim

Actually, I think that would have been an Awesome end...Entertaining in the least....



More to the point though...When The Two Towers came out I had been waiting for the Shelob scene (against all odds), once I realized it wouldn't be in TTT however I almost screamed. After another year of waiting and after finally seeing it in The Return of the King though I figured it did at least as well there as it would have in it's rightful place.

In TTT it would only have detracted from the Importance of The Battle of Helm's Deep. Given that the focus of the film was The Battle of Helm's Deep it would risk losing the balance and importance of the film. I'm not sure if that makes sense...
...Look at it like this:
You have the battle, seemingly "the battle to end all battles". The audience is now ready for the winding down of the movie, they've either been presented with a lot of new information (if they've not read the books) or are eagerly awaiting what they know is to come (if they have read the books). The Film begins to wind down, everyone is expecting this and so no one's really expecting anything to happen.
Now here's the choice they had, either you can leave it at this wound-down state, with a few hints at what is to come or you can leave them with a sudden, unexpected (in terms of action, for those who know the books Shelob should not be a suprise) Almost Death of Most Importance Person.

The first option, the one they went with, leaves no one suprised. Those unfamiliar with the books are left with the rather irksome "She" and those familiar with the book now have one thing more than they expected to look forward to. Yes the scene loses it's rightful place in TTT, but the main focus of the film (The Battle of Helm's Deep) doesn't lose anything by being overshadowed by the cliffhanger (I, personally, doubt the hints of "She" could overshadow an ant...they were really disappointing).

The second option, the one which more closely follows the books, risks overshadowing The Battle of Helm's Deep, as well as everything else which happened in the film. Those unfamiliar with the book leave worrying about Frodo and devote all their thought to that and those who are familiar with the books aren't likely to lose as much of the importance, but would probably have spent the next year playing with the minds of those unfamiliar with the books. The Final thought on everyone's mind as they left the theatre would not be "They won the battle, but have yet to win the war.", or something to that effect, but rather "Spider! Frodo! Ring! Orcs! BAD!", or something to that effect....

Looking at what the scene does to RotK...It gives those unfamiliar with the books something to fret about...It gives those of us familiar with the books the Shelob scene (FINALLY!...*cough* anyway, moving on)....It ensures that something happens to Frodo and Sam, y'know--before Gollum attacks them and Frodo decides to keep the Ring for himself, I know they have to sneak in amongst orcs but it's still not a lot, esp. compared to what happens to everyone else... Yes it ruins a chance for an amazing cliffhanger (either as an actual cliffhanger or one like Eomer's above), but TTT doesn't loose a whole lot and RotK gains a fair bit--it may not be a perfect trade but I think it's a fair one.


...and after all that defending of where it is, I really do agree with Eomer...I want Shelob in The Two Towers where she belongs.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Deagol-Smeagol intro would not have worked. With Frodo in Cirith Ungol and Sam headed that way, Gollum is nowhere near. It would not have made sense.

That scene was supposed to be in TTT to begin with, but it was changed and added to ROTK instead. Someone mentioned it in the ROTK commentary.

[Essex]

Most Tolkien book fans have moaned at one time or another about how the films are different to the books.

Jackson puts the Shelob scene in EXACTLY where it is chronologically in the books.

And now lots of people slag him off for actually following Tolkien's time line.

He can't win, whatever he does............

Now when I first heard that shelob wasn't in TT I was dismayed, and yes, the book has the greatest Cliffhanger in all of 20th Century literature, and I've mentioned this quite a few times in the last couple of years on this site. BUT listen to the extras on the ROTK dvd, and they explain how why they did this to fit in with Tolkien's timeline. In the book, Aragorn was fighting the forces at Pelagir, Theoden was in Drauadan Forest, and Minas Tirith was about to be besieged.

So Jackson was being FAITHFUL TO THE BOOKS. And he still gets a bad time. Oh well.

PS the only way having Shelob at the end of TT and remain faithful to the books is to edit the movies as Tolien wanted them - IE follow the NARRATION of the books. But this would be Movie suicide - it just would never have worked staying on one group of characters for half a movies length.

PPS the movies are all one long 12 hour marathon now that we have the DVDs anyway. Like the books, they're just one long story split up in 3 sections. Just like Tolkien was forced to split the book up into 3 chunks for it to be published.

PPPS - and yes, I know, if you want to be picky, in truth the LOTR is 6 books!!!!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Followed Tolkien's timeline; did not follow Tolkien's The Two Towers. It's a choice that had to be made and, yeah, we would moan either way.

The major negative consequence of the director's choice is that Frodo and Sam's story in The Two Towers movie is horrible.

[Bêthberry]

Dredging the harbour to build a better port, eh, Eomer?

I think you have to consider the placing of Shelob in terms of the movie concept PJ had for LotR: action/adventure/blockbuster flic. As a creative artist, he has the right to develop his own interpretation, as long as it is marketed as his version of events, of course.

The yardstick for placing Shelob then becomes where will her inclusion best appeal to the kind of audience which favours action/adventure/blockbuster flics.

I think it would just be *too* scary for the general members of this audience (where the XY chromosomes hold the majority--at least, it seems so to this minority XX member) to contemplate an ending with a female, loathesome as she is, to get the upper hand on our young hero. It is inconceivable that a female, even an evilly vile one, could come off with the big climax. Orcs carrying off Pippin and Merry are no threat to the masculinity of those youthful hobbits, but a female, well, PJ had enough to deal with representing Frodo's kind of heroism without inviting that kind of disasterous denouement.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Of course. That must be the answer.

[Elianna]

Am I the only one who, despite the first half of her name being "she" and meaning she, who doesn't usually remember that Shelob is a girl?