Using Shelob, and choice of cliffhangers

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

O drigel, you are inviting a furious backlash by suggesting adding the Scouring. (I'm with you, though!)

Folwren brings up another point which I had forgotten: Sam's grief. In all honesty this could have been one of the saddest scenes in cinematic history. As it turned out, it was merely ok and ridiculously short.

I am slightly puzzled by mormegil's thoughts: that people might not like the 'Frodo-captured' ending for being too dramatic and intense. Well, was the boring 'Gollum-mutters' ending preferable? It was certainly an intensity-killer. I don't think it satisfied.

[Lalwendë]

I had thought that the Shelob episode worked quite well being moved to RotK. But reading what everyone's saying here is making me change my mind about that. It's true that the ending of TT was a little strange and subdued, and it would have made a wonderful ending to have left the non-reading audience thinking that Frodo was dead.

There would have been another benefit to it of course, and it may have made even more people go out and read the books.

[Kath]

I agree with you Eomer. When I first read TTT I was absolutely hooked by the ending. I was in the car at the time and bugged my father to speed all the way home so I could find out what happened next.

I never felt this sense of urgency or even desire to find out when I watched TTT and this is not just down to knowing anyway because I had some idea of the plot when I read the books first time anyway.

Putting Shelob and Frodo and Sam's separation in TTT might have made a pretty dull film actually exciting. The whole focus was on the happenings at Helm's Deep and then as a way to show that Frodo and Sam were in the film they put in that awful Faramir story (which I won't go into because I will rant about it for pages!).

As for a clifhanger, seeing a giant spider attack Frodo and then orcs carrying him off with poor Sam just having found out that the master he left to die is still alive and now in the hands of the enemy is in my opinion as far better and more tense cliffhanger than Gollums comments about a 'she'.

[Elianna]

Having the big huge climax of the movie be with Frodo and Sam, instead of with Aragorn et al. would have also reminded the viewers that the real quest is with Frodo, and that all that Aragorn is doing is being...

Legolas: A diversion!

Me: Yes, Lego, *pats his golden head* now go away.

Phillipa Boyens talks on the extras of the DVD about how you can't be so emotionally demanding on your audience, to have them sit through Helm's Deep and then have to go face Shelob too. But by moving Shelob to RotK, they do the same thing. You're all emotionally drained from Shelob, then go through all the Pelennor Fields, and when that climactic battle is final over, you think you can relax, but no, the next scene brings you back to Frodo, the one who's really important, who is still stuck in Cirith Ungol.

[Folwren]

Originially posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim:
Folwren brings up another point which I had forgotten: Sam's grief. In all honesty this could have been one of the saddest scenes in cinematic history. As it turned out, it was merely ok and ridiculously short.

That's my point. In the book, Tolkien takes up several pages protraying how sad he was and how completely devistated he became when Frodo died. I mean, Sam even suggested suicide to himself and that's pretty drastic. In the movie, they don't show any of that.

I agree with Elianna...they focussed far too much on Aragorn and Helm's Deep.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

To compensate, they had the terrible Faramir deal. Frodo and Sam had nothing to work with so they make Faramir into a supposedly huge threat: which is not exciting and the whole affair totally demeaned Faramir. What a woeful character he turned out to be. He barely came off better than that blonde guy who says:

"It is as the Lord Denethor predicted; long has he foreseen this doom!"

And let me tell you, that guy did not come off well.

O, and Helm's Deep was stretched out way too far. My mother was absolutely sick of it. Not everyone likes battles. Now, I agree that the battle should have been the centrepiece of the movie, but it should not have consumed the story like it did.

[The Saucepan Man]

It couldn't have worked from a timing point of view without moving a good portion of the beginning of RotK back to TTT.

As Frodo, Sam and Gollum are climbing the hidden staircase, the armies of Mordor are marching on Osgiliath, en route to Minas Tirith. So, Orthanc, Pippin and the Palantir and Gandalf and Pippin riding to Minas Tirith and meeting Denethor would all have needed to be added in to TTT.

It only works in the books because the two storylines are presented sequentially rather than concurrently. But to do that on screen would have been incredibly confusing for audiences and would not have worked at all.

And I might as well tack on my usual refrain on such questions: What's done is done. We have what I consider to be three amazing films. Either watch 'em and enjoy 'em or don't watch 'em at all.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'll never accept your rationality Sauce: Send Shelob back to TTT!!!

[The Only Real Estel]

At the risk of this post being filled with too many quote tags I plan on quoting a few things but mostly limiting myself to referring to things that have been said. Having said that, let me start off some quotes.

Originally posted by Eomer:

"O, but then The Return of the King would be weaker!"

Originally posted by Kitanna:

ROTK couldn't really be weak unless PJ really, really tired at it. With the Siege of Minas Tirith, the Ride of the Rohirrim, and the ulitmate destruction of the Ring I don't think ROTK would have been weaker if Shelob was in TTT.

Kitanna, I think Eomer's above quote that you replied to was directed more towards Frodo & Sam's part of RotK being more boring. Although you can add all the stuff in that everyone has mentioned, I don't think you can deny that it wouldn't be as exciting as Shelob.

Originally posted by Eomer:

What actually happened in the film of The Two Towers was this: Frodo and Sam stumbled through an achingly boring storyline with the pretend Faramir. A major reason Faramir is so bad in the film is because he had to appear as a threat to Frodo. And so they walk about a bit, go to Osgiliath, and end on the most disappointing cliffhanger possible: Gollum speaking to himself about how this mystery female could get the Ring for him.

*groan*

-and also-

Frodo and Sam had nothing to work with so they make Faramir into a supposedly huge threat: which is not exciting and the whole affair totally demeaned Faramir. What a woeful character he turned out to be.

To me, Faramir was bad in the theatrical version. Osgiliath was bad in the theatrical version. I was ticked & upset with the original version of the film, or at least any parts that contained Faramir, for quite sometime (I'm sure a lot of people here can attest to that ). But I think that the Extended Edition of Two Towers did a lot of good to Faramir's character, though I'm not about to say he couldn't still have been a lot better.

As for the 'most disappointing cliff-hanger possible,' I'm not to sure whether I agree with you there or not. I agree that Shelob could have been put into TTT (putting aside the timing element that SpM just mentioned) without too much trouble. Like Eomer said, it was Jackson's choice to have Helm's Deep be the 'be all & end all' of the film, & he could easily have scaled it down a bit to accomodate Shelob and a great ending. I think having Frodo "alive but taken by the enemy" and Sam either alone in Mordor or knocked out outside the gates (however you want to do it) would make a great ending. But I don't think that the current ending is the worst piece of filmmanship (<---I'll be darned if that's not a new word) ever.

At first I was greatly disappointed mainly because I found I wasn't going to get to see Shelob, but if you look at it from a non-book movie goers point of view, it's actually pretty foreboding. TTT ends with Sam's speech (which I liked) & Smeagol reverting back to Gollum, having made the decision to lead the hobbits into a trap in which Frodo & Sam would be killed & the Ring lost to Gollum again. We aren't clued in as to where this trap is, when it will be sprung, or who the heck this 'she' is. Being left in the dark about something big that's going to happen can generate a lot of suspense. I know quite a few people who went ahead & read the books because they couldn't stand to wait & find out who the 'she' was. I think the ending is at the very least ok.

I'm not 100% sure whether Shelob would've been better in TTT or not, but I am sure that she would've worked there, contrary to what Jackson & Boyens keep trying to tell us. And the ending would have been better in my opinion also.

[mormegil]

I am slightly puzzled by mormegil's thoughts: that people might not like the 'Frodo-captured' ending for being too dramatic and intense. Well, was the boring 'Gollum-mutters' ending preferable? It was certainly an intensity-killer. I don't think it satisfied.

Cinematically, it may be too much for an audience to handle. I mean to have another emotionally climax at the end of a movie would leave the audience confused. The movie needed to have a climax and then a bit of a winding down period. It just upsets the emotional balance of a movie to have that big an event at the end.

I am not saying that I agree entirely with everything in the movie but I don't see this as a major sticky point. I've never liked the Faramir in the movies but that's another thread I'm sure.

[Lhunardawen]

Now, now, Eomer...

While I agree with you that Shelob is better of being in TTT, that would destroy the uniformity that all three movies ended 'relaxed'. I mean in the movies there's nothing that would make you scream, "Hey! What happened? Don't end yet!" Anyone can wait for a year to know how the story goes after the breaking of the Fellowship, what would happen to Frodo and Sam and Gollum in Mordor and who 'she' is, or what the events after Helm's Deep will be. If TTT ended with such a cliffhanger, non-book-reading movie watchers might terrorize PJ into releasing RotK right away.

But then again, RotK became too emotionally climactic because of Shelob's placement there. Frankly, that movie was almost too much for me to handle if I haven't read the book. On the other hand, TTT was too dull due to Helm's Deep's exaggerated length. PJ could have reconciled the climactic Shelob scene and a 'relaxed' ending in TTT, but that would render the entire point of Shelob's appearance senseless. So, like SpM said, what's done is done.