Luthien & Galadriel

[Mithalwen]

I really don't think it is a fair comparison. But I may be prejudiced because I have never found Luthien anything like as interesting as Galadriel. And Beren never really appealed - especially as I blame him for FInrod the beloved's death ...

We don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I really don't think it is a fair comparison. But I may be prejudiced because I have never found Luthien anything like as interesting as Galadriel. And Beren never really appealed - especially as I blame him for FInrod the beloved's death ...

We don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

Yes... I seem to think so because she was quoted to be the greatest of Elven women, that would mean Luthien was removed from the picture because she became a mortal. But you see, before Luthien surrendered her immortality, she was on par (or almost) with Sauron during their confrontation at Tol Sirion & she also tore down it's walla & laid bare its pits. Same thing with Galadriel. I don't believe Sauron could've taken over Lothlorien or Galadriel so long as she had Nenya without Sauron's One Ring.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

IWe don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

Just a quick question, Mithalwen, as I must be on 'thick' today, but are you suggesting that childbirth diminished the strength of elven women? Is this stated somewhere in one of Tolkien's more recondite revisionary texts or are you making this deduction from what you have read?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Just a quick question, Mithalwen, as I must be on 'thick' today, but are you suggesting that childbirth diminished the strength of elven women? Is this stated somewhere in one of Tolkien's more recondite revisionary texts or are you making this deduction from what you have read?

Found this in 'Laws & Customs among the Eldar' (Morgoth's Ring)

Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, & still more in the bearing of children, greater share & strength of their being, in mind & body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the eldar brought forth fewer children;....

&

Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi (Elven women) fought valiantly, & there was less difference in strength & speed between elven-men & elven-women that had not borne child than is seen amongst mortals.

There may be other references to the way childbearing dimishes the strength of elven-women but that's all a quick search has turned up.

[Nimrodel_9]

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

I never thought of that before. So if Galadriel was so powerful I wonder why she didn't do more?

[Formendacil]

I believe that it is impossible for Galadriel to have equalled Luthien, even if she had "Feanorian" powers and Nenya. My reason?

Elrond.

Elrond is clearly shown in the Lord of the Rings to be Galadriel's peer. They have their "specialties", sure enough, but overall they are comparable. In some ways, Elrond is clearly the superior.

While it is true that Elrond bears Vilya, said to be the greatest of the Three Rings, I highly doubt that the difference in Ring-Power would make him Galadriel's equal, if she is of "Feanorian" power.

The reason lies in his descent from Luthien. Tolkien refers to the lineage of Luthien in Elros' descendents as being the key to their "divine"-like status- not their royalty or Elven blood. In addition, note this quote from "The Houses of Healing":

Aragorn went first to Faramir, and then to the Lady Eowyn, and last to Merry. When he had looked on the faces of the sick, and seen their hurts he sighed. 'Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,' he said. 'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greatest power.'

Elrond's power is clearly tied to being much older than Aragorn, and the power is obviously from their joint lineage, a lineage in which Luthien figures most prominently, and to which Tolkien refers most often. Tolkien refers to Luthien more than any other First Age ancestor in connection to Aragorn than any other in his Letters- including Earendil.

Now, if Luthien's great-grandson is such a powerful figure based on her blood, and if her blood is still shaping the lives of her descendents as far down as Aragorn, then I would say that it's quite unlikely Galadriel was her equal, Nenya or no Nenya.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I believe that it is impossible for Galadriel to have equalled Luthien, even if she had "Feanorian" powers and Nenya. My reason?

Elrond.

Elrond is clearly shown in the Lord of the Rings to be Galadriel's peer. They have their "specialties", sure enough, but overall they are comparable. In some ways, Elrond is clearly the superior.

While it is true that Elrond bears Vilya, said to be the greatest of the Three Rings, I highly doubt that the difference in Ring-Power would make him Galadriel's equal, if she is of "Feanorian" power.

The reason lies in his descent from Luthien. Tolkien refers to the lineage of Luthien in Elros' descendents as being the key to their "divine"-like status- not their royalty or Elven blood. In addition, note this quote from "The Houses of Healing":



Elrond's power is clearly tied to being much older than Aragorn, and the power is obviously from their joint lineage, a lineage in which Luthien figures most prominently, and to which Tolkien refers most often. Tolkien refers to Luthien more than any other First Age ancestor in connection to Aragorn than any other in his Letters- including Earendil.

Now, if Luthien's great-grandson is such a powerful figure based on her blood, and if her blood is still shaping the lives of her descendents as far down as Aragorn, then I would say that it's quite unlikely Galadriel was her equal, Nenya or no Nenya.

In no way is Elrond equal to Galadriel. Peer perhaps but not her equal. Galadriel is often described as Feanor's rival, if not her equal. She was a match for both athletes & lore masters. Finrod Felegund, her brother, was even able to go toe-to-toe with Sauron who barely won only because Finrod was under the doom of Mandos, as are all the Noldor. Galadriel being greater than Finrod, this she can do also. Her stature in Valinor was already noteworthy even before she left for ME. She fought valiantyl against the host of Feanor at the slaying of Alqualonde. I've never heard of Luthien doing hand-to-hand combat. For these great eldars, especially Feanor have come very near to rival a maia. Now, Luhtien has a 1/2 divine DNA but what does it mean for Galadriel who was accounted the greatest of elven women, to study in the tutelage of Melian for many years? Now Gandalf/galadriel has clearly stated that the elven rings give power according to the measure of the wearer, & it's quite obvious that Galadriel is far greater than Elrond (though he had Vilya, check out Lady G's effects). She knew Sauron's mind... not many of "wise" had this dominion over the greatest of the maiar. Nenya clearly enhanced her natural talents in many folds.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

In no way is Elrond equal to Galadriel. Peer perhaps but not her equal. Galadriel is often described as Feanor's rival, if not her equal.

And here your thesis begins to crumble... Galadriel is only described thus late in Tolkien's life, at a time when he was also saying that Celeborn was a Valinorean Teler, in contradiction of his canonical status in the LotR and Appendices. So your source is slightly suspect.

But setting that aside, how does being Feanor's equal make Galadriel Luthien's equal? As a half-Maia, Luthien is neither more a "Child of Eru" or more an Ainur, and thus would appear to be exempt from any "Greatest of the Children of Iluvatar" status claims.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

She was a match for both athletes & lore masters. Finrod Felegund, her brother, was even able to go toe-to-toe with Sauron who barely won only because Finrod was under the doom of Mandos, as are all the Noldor. Galadriel being greater than Finrod, this she can do also.

Are you forgetting that Luthien actually bested Finrod's claim not long after. She had Sauron by the throat, and if she hadn't been as kind-hearted as she was, there would never have been a Ring for Frodo to destroy...

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Her stature in Valinor was already noteworthy even before she left for ME. She fought valiantyl against the host of Feanor at the slaying of Alqualonde. I've never heard of Luthien doing hand-to-hand combat.

Hand to hand combat? That's what we base greatness and power on?

I direct your attention to Faramir's little discourse in "The Window on the West":

'Yet now, if the Rohirrim have grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with the memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both as a sport and as an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor.

T'would seem to me that you are much like these "falling" men of Gondor, putting martial skill above all else. And I would agree with Faramir that such is a sign of fading.

And one can't put it down to bravery, because bravery can be exhibited without fighting. Luthien's entire story of braving Tol Sirion and Angband is a story of courage.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

For these great eldars, especially Feanor have come very near to rival a maia.

Again, I don't know that I believe this statement. Feanor was great, yes, and with a mind and spirit to rival no other, but that does not mean that his raw power was any more than that of a Maia. Nowhere does it say that at all.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Now, Luhtien has a 1/2 divine DNA but what does it mean for Galadriel who was accounted the greatest of elven women, to study in the tutelage of Melian for many years? Now Gandalf/galadriel has clearly stated that the elven rings give power according to the measure of the wearer, & it's quite obvious that Galadriel is far greater than Elrond (though he had Vilya, check out Lady G's effects). She knew Sauron's mind... not many of "wise" had this dominion over the greatest of the maiar. Nenya clearly enhanced her natural talents in many folds.

In the entire LotR, whenever Elrond and Galadriel are together, they are shown as being equals. You admit to them being peers. Well, that is tantamout to admitting that they are equals. In Gondor, on the road to the Redhorn Pass, and coming to Grey Havens, whenever they are together, they are shown as being equals. Celeborn gets no such treatment. He is shown as being his wife's equal partner, but we never see him getting the same sort of comparisons as Elrond and Gandalf (who IS a Maiar...)

As I said, Elrond and Galadriel had their fields of study. Galadriel is seen to be extremely proficient in mind-reading, but she clearly does not have great skill at healing- a skill which Elrond appears to practice with greater talent than any other in Middle-earth.

Galadriel is a great person, yes. But to put her over Luthien... that's a bit of a stretch.