And it slips through our fingers

[Elianna]

*concurs with all the religious things phantom and alatar have said.*

But then the up side of all of this is "eucatastrophe." Yes, everything is getting horribly worse, but eventually it will all be set right. Yes, the Elves are going away, but look, there's still hope in people like Faramir and Eldarion. Yes, after five Battles with Morgoth, we're nowhere near defeating him, but look, the Valar have come to our rescue. Yes, Numenor was destroyed, but look, there's still the Faithful with their seven ships, and seven stones, and one white tree.

Probably, Tolkien is pointing to a grander, universal eucatastrophe. That these smaller eucatastrophes hardly make up for what was lost, and even looking at the bright side, it's nowhere near as bright as it used to be. But we can still look forward to the final eucatastrophe in the End. And this, I think, really is a Christian concept.

Yeats' "The Second Coming" also comes to mind, the gyre and things fall apart...

[Folwren]

I don't know that Tolkien was pointing directly to our world with his getting worse and worse but he could have been. I know that C.S. Lewis was aware of the deteroration of this world and the people therein, and I would guess that Tolkien was as well. But as to contuing to get worse and worse with no hope to ever regain the perfect glory that they began with, that much does not mirror what will happen here.

Alatar, I agree with most everything you said, so I won't go repeating it all.

The ending of our World, however, may be more glorious than that of Middle-Earth's ending. If you believe the Bible and study it and understand it at all, then you can see that when this World comes to an end, as we say, then the new world will be ten times more glorious and all the evil that has filled it will be removed, and all the perfect things we've messed up with be restored.

I don't see that as possible in Middle Earth. The things that were lost there may not be recoverable...least ways, that's the impression I've gotten from what I've read of his books.

-Folwren

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I don't know that Tolkien was pointing directly to our world with his getting worse and worse but he could have been. I know that C.S. Lewis was aware of the deteroration of this world and the people therein, and I would guess that Tolkien was as well.

I would disagree. Surely things change, yet if you read history we're still the same humans (or not) that we were thousands of years back. The Christian Bible shows many examples of less than civilized/immoral behavior that could be taking place today.

I don't see that as possible in Middle Earth. The things that were lost there may not be recoverable...least ways, that's the impression I've gotten from what I've read of his books.

I would agree. To me it seems that each new age in Middle Earth is born with some loss. Within that age some beings may achieve some great things, yet when averaged and compared with the preceding ages, the achievements are never as lofty.

In the Fourth Age Minas Tirith may enter its glory, yet it will never be as it first was, or as Gondolin was before it. And as Gimli says to Legolas as they enter Minas Tirith, men seemingly will never live up to their own potential.

[Folwren]

[QUOTE=alatar]I would disagree. Surely things change, yet if you read history we're still the same humans (or not) that we were thousands of years back. The Christian Bible shows many examples of less than civilized/immoral behavior that could be taking place today. [QUOTE]

I would say that we are changed...quite. We've gotten very much extremely perverse in just about everything that anyone does...and not only the non-religious people, but also those who claim to be Christians.

Yes, to be sure, we are humans, but more than just our morality or immoratily has changed. And...I was going to say more, but my sister-in-law is shoving me off of here, so I can't.

But I'll be back! ... Somehow.

-Folwren

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I would say that we are changed...quite. We've gotten very much extremely perverse in just about everything that anyone does...and not only the non-religious people, but also those who claim to be Christians.

Ever hear about someone named Caligula?

Today you hear/see an event in realtime that happens across the globe. The media, a bit bigger now than even a few decades back, shows you everything! And if that didn't shock you, they will show you everything+ tomorrow - just so that you will tune in and view the commercials.

Read the Old Testament of the Christian Bible, and see what fills God's book - one can only imagine what else happened that was not recorded (note that I mean no offence ). Wasn't Leviticus written as a result of what people may have had the tendency to do (or were doing, or did)?

[Holbytlass]

I don't see it as so much aligned with religion as just the way things are. All things come to an end..places, kingdoms, races and so forth. I suppose that's part of some scientific theory I couldn't name.
I also see it as Alatar pointed out that humans do tend to look back on things either in memory or stories (ie, history) with rose-colored glasses. Romanticizing the good and not dwelling on the bad parts.
In essence Tolkien did have to tie this story in with true history down to real life now. He being the author could (and did) write people and places as grander and better than the state of things he was living in his own life.

[Lathriel]

It always saddened me when I read the last few chapters of LOTR and came to realize that magic is truly leaving ME and the decay of many glorious things and places.
But I think this is exactly what life is about. Things can't always continue to be great and there are many examples in history.
To take an obvious example, The Roman Empire, it was great but it didn't last. However, something else will replace that which was lost. The renaisance (although it took some time) again helped the nations flourish. So it is only natural that certain things diminish. That is why LOTR can almost be seen as a historical book. It is because it stays true to these certain realities.

[Folwren]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

I don't see it as so much aligned with religion as just the way things are. All things come to an end..places, kingdoms, races and so forth. I suppose that's part of some scientific theory I couldn't name.

Good point. Extremely good. I have heard, though I have not seen a direct quote from Tolkien, so don't take it for granted, that he didn't want it to be allegorical.

I've never heard of Caligula, Alatar. Sorry.

The media do go around broadcasting things, but that's also what makes it so bad. Without the media, TV, horrible movies, perverse commercials, and whatever else you wish to add, everyday life and everyday people would be a lot better. We've receeded a long, long ways from real Christianity (and other moral things). The pioneers (I use 'em because someone mentioned them earlier in this thread) didn't go around dressed as we do, they didn't go around talking about the things we do, they didn't go around thinking like we do, they were probably ten times as smart as most of us. We've deteriorted a long way in a matter of two hundred years or so...

But then you might argue that we've also become a lot more efficient and smarter in the fact that we have tons of machines that do every little thing for us (even eat, in some cases) and our technology that we have now wasn't even dreamed of a hundred years ago...I think, though, that even these great accomplishments have helped to corrupt us.

We are yearning for immortality. That's what these life supporting machines in hospitals, all the drugs that are out, and just about everything else are made for. Of course, people don't use the term 'immortality', but all in all, that's what we're searching for. And wasn't that what caused the destruction of Numenor? Wasn't that what ended up ruining everyone?

Okay, I think this has actually strayed from the point of the thread. *sigh* I could start up my own thread, but I don't know if we want discussions like that here.

Did I answer anything you said, Alatar? Reading over the last few posts, and yours, I don't know that I did. But I've spent too much time typing here as it is. I'll come back later and say more if you think it necessary.