That good night: gift or punishment?

[Formendacil]

If death, as we know it, is the consequence of the Fall, in Catholic and/or Athrabeth terms, how can is also be seen as the Gift of Men?

I was sort of wondering that as I read Lhuna's post, and this stood out for me:

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Death is also considered as the end of life's "first phase," and the rite of passage from life on earth to an eternal life in heaven, which is the actual reward - similar to how childbirth is an infant's exit from life inside his mother's womb to his life independent from his mother. The case in Middle Earth is the same, I believe. The gift of Men, I think, is a perfect, eternal life with Eru, and the fact that they are not bound to the Music.

If the Gift of Man is an early departure from this world (compared with the Elves or Ainur), then perhaps the consequence of the Fall wasn't so much the fact that Men must now depart from this world, but that Men must die to do so.

Thinking about Eden (if I may use this Christian term to refer to pre-Fall Man), I have to wonder if Eru intended Man to be immortal therein. After all, Eden was apparently here on this earth, and yet the Gift of Man (present from the Musis itself) is to release Man from this world. Perhaps there was to be, in Eden, a transition at some point from the earthly paradise of worship to the heavenly paradise of worship.

In this perfect world, Arda Unmarred, perhaps the intention was that Man would naturally, after time in this world, pass on as easily as a traveller, without the pain and agony associated with death. Perhaps in pre-Fall forms, the entire Man, body and spirit, would leave the Circles of the World at the time of release, instead of the painful sundering of body and spirit that we now call death.

Remember, with the Elves the sundering of body and spirit in death is unnatural, and ultimately (either in this world or in Arda Remade) the Elves are to be rehoused. The same would appear to be true for Man, once he dwells in Arda Remade. Perhaps the original intention was for Man to journey from this world to the world beyond body and spirit, like the Elves, the Gift of Man being, of course, a much earlier transition.

[alatar]

Is it general knowledge, and for some reason I just can't find the same (laziness, perhaps ), but do all humans receive the Gift, meaning the escape from the confines of Arda or to be with Eru? Or is this limited to the virtuous and obedient? Would Denethor, Bill Ferny, the Mouth of Sauron etc all escape?

And, personally, I prefer the death as a Gift idea over the death as a result of the Fall concept (or whatever the right word should be). One shows that there may be light at the end (even nonexistance might be preferable to dying by a thousand slices), was put in place for me, while the other has a chance of eternal damnation and was due to another's poor judgment.

[davem]

I started a thread on Death in Tolkien's works a long time ago, which ended up focussing mainly on the Elves attitude to Death, but I think some interesting ideas came up along the way.

[littlemanpoet]

Death, as defined by Christian theology, is separation from God.

When Adam and Eve fell to temptation, according to the mythology (true myth for those who wish to see it that way), they became "dead in sin". That is to say, they had begun to suffer separation from God because they had done what God said they must not do.

The cessation of physical function in a human is the physical manifestation of Death. The non-physical manifestation (if one may call it that) is the soul's/spirit's experience of reality as apart-from-God. To any who hunger for God, this is tantamount to eternal starvation rather than salvation.

The Death as described above, is what the Someone changed about 2000 years ago.

So Death is no gift, understood in this way, could never be, and is not, I think, what Tolkien is talking about. I don't think he meant the cessation of physical function as the Gift of Death to Men. Nor do I think it's mere release from the trammels of this life.

The Christian view looks forward to a New Heaven and a New Earth, in which human bodies and spirits have been re-created to live, in-God, for eternity. Perhaps the gift Tolkien writes of is nothing more, nothing less, than the hope for something more beyond the circles of Arda.

[davem]

This will again seem like I'm on my hobby horse, but I think we have to restrict ourselves to the way in which death can be seen as a 'gift' within the context of Middle earth. In Middle earth there is no account of what happens to men after death. They die & leave the circles of the world. That's it. No-one knows what happens to them - or even if anything does. It is implied that there is a continuation in some form, but of what kind is an open question.

So, how can death be seen as a gift within Middle earth? Men are not bound by the Music, so can change the world, in a way that other races/beings cannot, they can therefore 'think outside the box'. Yet they have a love of Arda - different from the love of Arda of the Elves. They have a desire to remain within the world, yet a curiosity about what may lie outside it. Men are called the 'Guests' by the Elves, because they only spend a little time in the world. In a sense they don't belong in the world & for all their love of it, they know that. Men know they have a different destiny - they are created with a desire for other things, for reasons only known to Eru. They have a central part to play because of that destiny.

Maybe that is the reason death is called a 'gift' - not death itself but the role they have within Arda of which death is a part - a central, essential, part, but a part nonetheless. Death is the means by which they fulfil their role.

Whatever we may say about Men within Middle earth they were not Christians, because they couldn't be. So, whatever hope Christianity offers Christians it is not relevant to Men in Middle earth. Their role & purpose, their 'gift', has nothing to do with Christianity. Aragorn accepts his 'gift' & leaves the world when it is his time, not because he is a Christian, but because he is a man in Middle earth.

In short, I don't think Christianity can offer an explanation of Death as a 'gift' to Men in Middle earth. If the secondary world is to stand alone & not require a primary world explanation for it to make sense - in which case applicability will cease to work & allegory be the only viable alternative - the answer to this question will have to be found within Middle earth, not outside it.

Or to put it another way, in this context (alone) the Christian understanding & explanation, is a cop out...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

In short, I don't think Christianity can offer an explanation of Death as a 'gift' to Men in Middle earth.

I do believe that you and I are saying the same thing in our own way. Nice to agree with you finally again.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alatar

Is it general knowledge, and for some reason I just can't find the same (laziness, perhaps ), but do all humans receive the Gift, meaning the escape from the confines of Arda or to be with Eru? Or is this limited to the virtuous and obedient? Would Denethor, Bill Ferny, the Mouth of Sauron etc all escape?

All humans receive the Gift of Death (although it seems to be much delayed in some more than others), but what happens to the spirits of Men after the departure from Arda... who knows?

Tolkien indicates that release from Arda is a welcome thing for those who have lived good lives: Beren, Luthien, Elros, Aragorn... But I don't recall any statements about those who weren't so good. Certainly the Mouth of Sauron dies (and so receives the Gift of Men), but we are not told if his lot in the afterlife is comparable to that of Beren or Luthien, say.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

"To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."

What better gift than the adventure of a lifetime?

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by davem

This will again seem like I'm on my hobby horse, but I think we have to restrict ourselves to the way in which death can be seen as a 'gift' within the context of Middle earth. In Middle earth there is no account of what happens to men after death

Ah, davem, it seems like a high time to bring my own mount of choice to race you in this Derby. Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with discussing inside the ME bounds, I have several bones to pick, and maybe even gnaw at with you

Per instance, why should not we see Death as a punishment and a gift at the same time? Even not drawing in Primary World references, Atrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth hints at possibilities of viewing it thus, as, you no doubt, remember, as seen here

Indeed, it is a Punishment – severance of the body and soul, which was not originally designed, is a pain in itself. It is a gift, gift of freedom, for unless the soul should be let go, the whole combination goes under Morgoth. Whatever lies beyond (and is unknown or unkown fully), is an option better to becoming thrall to him. Besides, whatever comes from Eru, is considered to be for the good of his Children (stated as such by Finrod, so far for textual evidence):

If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy

Indeed, the whole existence is His gift, as Eru is free and has no need to give:

Note 1 to AFaA

The Eldar held that Eru was and is free at all stages

Brief aside concerning the kind of freedom Men have:

Originally Posted by davem

Men are not bound by the Music, so can change the world, in a way that other races/beings cannot, they can therefore 'think outside the box'

Last time we’ve been through this, I have had another option. I stand by it still: the freedom (of will) of all rational beings lies in the choice they are given, as the ultimate Freedom is with Eru:

'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'

Therein lies the story: given the same ruler of Good and Evil, all Children should measure with it their actions in similar way, and the freedom is in the process of measurement, not in different ruler. But one can not measure the same length with same ruler and come out with differing numbers? There is nothing special about humans in this respect apart from the mode of their death. But death is not their freedom per se, it is their fate! And according to Finrod’s guess (and that being only textual evidence withing ME so only reliable source) it is through their death that they bring change. Add to that vague references to probable Incarnation of Eru made in the same conversation, and you get another option for a Death to be a gift: it is a gift of Freedom (from Morgoth) right now, but in the future, it may become the gift of Creation (of the new world – Arda Remade). So it is gift now and greater gift potentially. (hum, 2gifts-1punishment=1gift? but that’s just a prank, do not heed )

Let's draw some logical chains:

1. According to Andreth, Men were designed to be immortal eternally, not bound by Arda’s fate.
2. Since separation of fëa and hröa is thought to be unnatural, in back reasoning, they were meant to lift the matter along with their spirit to some new level of existence
3. They fell. Death came as a release for them from Morgoth (so is the Gift in itself), but as it brought [unnatural] separation of fëa and hröa, it is at the same time a punishement. But the ‘gift part’ of it is greater – it a) grants them freedom from Morgoth b) makes their fate ‘fulfillable’, though modifies the mode of its achievement c) promises ‘third thing and greater’ – Eru Himself entering His own creation (Incarnation) and remaking of Arda

Even if Morgoth hoped for the outcome of the Man’s Fall when he contrived it to benefit him, and even if it was Morgoth’s design to have human fëar separated from their hröar (assuming he was aware of their fate and thus was planning to disrupt the Plan), he was defeated by the general principle (And thou, Melkor, shalt see...). That gives Finrod ground for joy, as he exclaims:

This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same.

And, since Men, despite they did fall, are still set on the task, and if the means of fullfilling it is their death as opposed to whatever the original design planned, than Death is a Gift! Is not it enough for the death stand of its own (as a gift) withing the secondary world?

Analogy (warning: quite a crude one) I’m nearsighted. Spectacles I wear are my punishment, as they rub the bridge of my nose red at times, I keep on forgetting them in the bathroom, my sporting activities are restricted to jogging or swimming, as the playing of football or tennis bears certain risks of getting them shattered right on my face. But, and grave ‘but’ at that, they are more Gift and blessing for me than a suffering, as with these on, I can see, thus fullfilling the destiny my eyes were devised for, unless the Fall in the face of my crystalline lens’ bad behaviour came about!

Originally Posted by davem

Maybe that is the reason death is called a 'gift' - not death itself but the role they have within Arda of which death is a part - a central, essential, part, but a part nonetheless. Death is the means by which they fulfil their role.

Yes, yes and yes! Your ‘maybe’ caused the whole previous paragraph, all in all

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by HI

(hum, 2gifts-1punishment=1gift? but that's just a prank, do not heed )

I think there's actually a point there...somewhere.

Originally Posted by HI (again)

Even if Morgoth hoped for the outcome of the Man's Fall when he contrived it to benefit him, and even if it was Morgoth's design to have human fëar separated from their hröar (assuming he was aware of their fate and thus was planning to disrupt the Plan), he was defeated by the general principle (And thou, Melkor, shalt see...).

Now here's the contradiction on Morgoth's part. I see that as long as Men would stay alive, there is a chance for him to sway them over to his side and keep them from Eru. But why in Arda did he resort to killing Men during the Battles of Beleriand? Seems to me Sauron knew better - he urged the kings of Numenor to sail West to pursue immortality.

[alatar]

Did I miss something in the Silmarillion in regards to the 'Fall' of mankind?

And, to be a bit silly, Eru allows humans to escape the confines of Arda in order that they might escape the fate of being the subject of a movie sequel by Peter Jackson and company; something that in time even the Powers may envy ("Hmmm, just how can we make this Silmarillion story more exciting...let's make it 10 jewels, add a back story of a romance triangle between Manwë, Varda and Melkor, leave out that Eru guy as he's not really important to Tolkien's main theme, add a few belching Dwarves and we might just have a hit! ").

And now back to the serious discourse.