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#1 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Numbers seem to be invested with significance in Arda, just as we invest them with great meaning. Seven is a number with a lot of symbolism. It is a lucky number, it is also significant in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, it numbers those planets/stars/moons in our own system we can see without a telescope. But I think all numbers have their own particular significance within Arda itself, without any reference to how we view them; Tolkien must have been trying to establish a similar history of symbols and symbolism in his own creation.
There are, as far as I can find, several instances of seven being significant. The oldest seems to be Valacirca, the seven stars, which could be the root of all the following symbolism. Then we have the seven fathers of the Dwarves (and the Dwarves are also given seven rings by Sauron), and the seven sons of Feanor. In terms of places, there are seven gates in Gondolin, the seventh being seven hundred (?) feet high, and Minas Tirith is on seven levels, each adding up to seven hundred feet. There are also seven Palantiri.
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#2 | |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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Minas Tirith has a special place in my Tolkien filled heart. This is because it was the first thing I read of ANY Tolkien related things. And thus it didn't make a lot of sense, but I enjoyed it intensely and it encouraged me to read further.
The opening to this Chapter is what remains in my mind the most. Quote:
This is made clear right away from Pippin's first words; "Where are we, Gandalf?" Allowing Gandalf to explain, rather than the narrative. I was personally amused by Pippins presumption "are there Dragons in this land?" As we all know, a fantasy story is not complete until there are dragons. This made me think back to The Hobbit, and more specifically, its importance on the story. It is obvious that Bilbo's story had had an effect on Pippin, we know that Merry was the only one (besides Bilbo and Frodo) who had seen the manuscript and read it, I assume, Pippin knew the story already and Merry had told him all the extra bits he had read. I'll think of more to say later.
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#3 | |||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Hobbits & Oath-Taking
In this chapter we have the third (or fourth, if we count Smeagol's) oath of service sworn by a Hobbit. Sam's is, as I pointed out in an earlier thread, the most subtle & the most easily missed: Quote:
Next, we have Frodo's oath: Quote:
So, Frodo's oath is more simple, because more specific, but more 'binding' because of that. Sam doesn't know what his oath binds him to do, what it will require of him, Frodo knows exactly what his oath requires of him. As Elrond says to Gimli, sworn word make break the heart. Next we have Smeaqgol's 'oath' sworn out a mixture of desire & fear. It is, os all the oaths, the one sworn least willingly, & the one sworn out of selfishness. It should never have been sworn, & much of the suffering that results from it comes as a direct result of this. Quote:
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#4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
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You can see that Pippin hasn't fully matured yet because if he had he might have thought twice before he offered his services to Denethor. He still lets his emotions guide him, but thet don't overtake him as much as they used to before.
He is also losing some of that innocence that he had back in book 1 or just some of his ignorance which led to curiosity and drove him to do silly things like throwing the rock down the well in Moria.
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#5 | ||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Denethor seems to see the loss of Boromir as a personal assault on him. Theoden as a result can grieve his loss & move on, Denethor is broken by it, because he sees it as fate being out to get him - everyone is against him, out to destroy him. He is embattled, cut off, waiting for the inevitable end - why bother fighting? He does continue organising the defence of Gondor, but soon he will decide there is no point in that. When we first meet them Theoden seems a worse case than Denethor. The Steward seems more in control of himself, more powerful, more aware & defiant. In actual fact he only seems stronger. The reality is that he is brittle & ready to shatter. What he lacks is Theoden’s inner strength, which is only sleeping. His words to Gandalf later seem to show his wisdom in conflict with his pride: Quote:
Another thing that struck me was his statement Quote:
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The chapter ends with the (as I think Tolkien called it) ‘Homeric procession’ of forces from outlying parts of the Realm. Their appearance is greeted with joy, yet their passing into the city perhaps deepens the inhabitants’ sense of despair. They hoped for thousands & got hundreds. They need Rohan. The great Darkness sweeps over them in the night, & all the lights in the city have been dimmed. Even Gandalf states ‘There will be no dawn.’ On a first reading we feel their despair, on subsequent readings we know it is mistaken, & that a dawn will come, with the crowing of a cock, the departure of the Lord of the Nazgul - never to return - & the horns of Rohan. Another eucatasptrophe. It is always darkest before the dawn - even when we know the dawn is inevitable. This chapter, as much as it is about Pippin, is about Denethor. We may see the events through Pippin’s eyes, but on another level we see things from Denethor’s perspective: we adopt, without realising it, Denethor’s point of view. Its as if he truly is Gondor. His spirit has settled on the city & on us. Yet the words of Beregond also echo through this chapter: Quote:
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#6 | ||
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
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The idea that Denethor has begun seeing himself as Gondor by this point rings very true and explains some of the Steward’s more mystifying behavior very well. But as for his seeming inconsistency of thought regarding lordship and dignity of his northern kindred, I would hazard to say that he probably thought them less worthy since Arvedui's time, when they had lost all the northern kingdoms. Though I doubt Denethor would have accepted Arvedui himself as king of Gondor viewing the traditional line held by Gondor regarding them.
To be a bit charitable to him on how he was spending his time, it is possible that Denethor only found time to meditate deeply on the broken horn while waiting for Gandalf and Pippin to arrive. And it appears that he was sharp at this point, not off in the deep end at all, even in Gandalf's eyes. So this 'prop' might have been chosen for it's effect in supporting the steward's show of real grief. Quote:
Also surprising was Pippin's notice of the joy under Gandalf's sorrow. It seems a very Christian concept. Ah yes, can't forget to mention this little quote, seeing where we are discussing this! Quote:
![]() Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 06-09-2005 at 03:43 AM. Reason: To fix the mess I had made of it and fill out some thoughts. |
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#7 | ||
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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