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Old 06-03-2005, 06:46 AM   #1
Lalwendë
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Numbers seem to be invested with significance in Arda, just as we invest them with great meaning. Seven is a number with a lot of symbolism. It is a lucky number, it is also significant in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, it numbers those planets/stars/moons in our own system we can see without a telescope. But I think all numbers have their own particular significance within Arda itself, without any reference to how we view them; Tolkien must have been trying to establish a similar history of symbols and symbolism in his own creation.

There are, as far as I can find, several instances of seven being significant. The oldest seems to be Valacirca, the seven stars, which could be the root of all the following symbolism. Then we have the seven fathers of the Dwarves (and the Dwarves are also given seven rings by Sauron), and the seven sons of Feanor. In terms of places, there are seven gates in Gondolin, the seventh being seven hundred (?) feet high, and Minas Tirith is on seven levels, each adding up to seven hundred feet. There are also seven Palantiri.
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Old 06-03-2005, 07:30 AM   #2
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Minas Tirith has a special place in my Tolkien filled heart. This is because it was the first thing I read of ANY Tolkien related things. And thus it didn't make a lot of sense, but I enjoyed it intensely and it encouraged me to read further.
The opening to this Chapter is what remains in my mind the most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolkien
Pippin looked out from the shelter of Gandalf's cloak. He wondered if he was awake of still sleeping, still in the swift-moving dream in which he had been wrapped so long since the great ride began. The dark world was rushing by and the wind sang loudly in his ears. He could see nothing but the wheeling of the stars and away to his right vast shadows against the sky where the mountains of the south marched past. Sleepily he tried to reckon the times and stages of their journey, but his memory was drowsy and uncertain.

The Return of the King: Chapter one, Minas Tirith
It always reminds me of why I enjoyed Tolkien. I think this whole chapter, in essence, shows why Tolkien decided to make Gandalf take Pippin along. As I think I mentioned in an earlier chapter, With any imaginary world, there needs to be an ignorant party. Pippin fits this description perfectly. Rather than let Tolkien describe it all in long hand, he allows Pippin to ask all the questions one would in a strange new country, questions like "What is this place", "What is its significance" and of course, "where can we get food".

This is made clear right away from Pippin's first words;
"Where are we, Gandalf?" Allowing Gandalf to explain, rather than the narrative. I was personally amused by Pippins presumption "are there Dragons in this land?" As we all know, a fantasy story is not complete until there are dragons. This made me think back to The Hobbit, and more specifically, its importance on the story. It is obvious that Bilbo's story had had an effect on Pippin, we know that Merry was the only one (besides Bilbo and Frodo) who had seen the manuscript and read it, I assume, Pippin knew the story already and Merry had told him all the extra bits he had read.

I'll think of more to say later.
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Old 06-03-2005, 02:42 PM   #3
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Hobbits & Oath-Taking

In this chapter we have the third (or fourth, if we count Smeagol's) oath of service sworn by a Hobbit. Sam's is, as I pointed out in an earlier thread, the most subtle & the most easily missed:

Quote:
'Well, Sam!' he said. 'What about it? I am leaving the Shire as soon as ever I can--in fact I have made up my mind now not even to wait a day at Crickhollow, if it can be helped.'
'Very good, sir!'
'You still mean to come with me?'
'I do.'
'It is going to be very dangerous, Sam. It is already dangerous. Most likely neither of us will come back.'
'If you don't come back, sir, then I shan't, that's certain,' said Sam. 'Don't you leave him! they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon; and if any of those Black Riders try to stop him, they'll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said. They laughed.'
'Who are they, and what are you talking about?
'The Elves, sir. We had some talk last night; and they seemed to know you were going away, so I didn't see the use of denying it. Wonderful folks, Elves, sir! Wonderful!'...
'Do you feel any need to leave the Shire now--now that your wish to see them has come true already?' he asked.
'Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want--I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.'
'I don't altogether. But I understand that Gandalf chose me a good companion. I am content. We will go together.''
What we have here is an oath of service sworn not to Frodo, but to the Elves. Frodo accepts Sam's sworn oath, & Sam becomes Frodo's servant. I think its quite significant that Sam's oath is sworn to 'higher' (in his mind at least) beings. The Elves are the nearest thing for Sam to spiritual powers, so his commitment is to something even higher than his friend & Master. Is to something greater, & it is a kind of 'religious' commitment - even if he doesn't understand what he has committed himself to he knows he now has a 'mission'.

Next, we have Frodo's oath:

Quote:
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.'
Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. 'If I understand aright all that I have heard,' he said, 'I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.
This, again, is an oath sworn not to a particular individual but to a cause, yet it is diferent to Sam's oath in that it is a 'worldly' task, & a very specific one, which Frodo commits himself to. Sam can only struggle to explain what he has committed himself to: 'It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want--I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire.'

So, Frodo's oath is more simple, because more specific, but more 'binding' because of that. Sam doesn't know what his oath binds him to do, what it will require of him, Frodo knows exactly what his oath requires of him. As Elrond says to Gimli, sworn word make break the heart.

Next we have Smeaqgol's 'oath' sworn out a mixture of desire & fear. It is, os all the oaths, the one sworn least willingly, & the one sworn out of selfishness. It should never have been sworn, & much of the suffering that results from it comes as a direct result of this.


Quote:
Frodo drew himself up, and again Sam was startled by his words and his 279 stern voice. 'On the Precious? How dare you?" he said. "Think! 'One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them. "Would you commit your promise to that, Smeagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!"
Gollum cowered. 'On the Precious, on the Precious!" he repeated.
'And what would you swear?" asked Frodo.

"To be very very good," said Gollum. Then crawling to Frodo's feet he grovelled before him, whispering hoarsely: a shudder ran over him, as if the words shook his very bones with fear. "Smeagol will swear never, never, to let Him have it. Never! Smeagol will save it. But he must swear on the Precious."
'No! not on it," said Frodo, looking down at him with stern pity. 'All you wish is to see it and touch it, if you can, though you know it would drive you mad. Not on it. Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes, you know, Smeagol. It is before you."
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.
'Down! down!" said Frodo. 'Now speak your promise!"
"We promises, yes, I promise!" said Gollum. "I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Smeagol, gollum, gollum!" Suddenly he began to weep and bite at his ankle again.
Next up is Pippin's oath to Denethor in this chapter:

Quote:
'Take the hilt,' said Gandalf, 'and speak after the Lord, if you are resolved on this.'
'I am,' said Pippin.
The old man laid the sword along his lap, and Pippin put his hand to the hilt, and said slowly after Denethor:
'Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end. So say I, Peregrin son of Paladin of the Shire of the Halflings.'
'And this do I hear, Denethor son of Ecthelion, Lord of Gondor, Steward of the High King, and I will not forget it, nor fail to reward that which is given: fealty with love, valour with honour, oath-breaking with vengeance.' Then Pippin received back his sword and put it in its sheath.
What's interesting here is the 'misunderstanding' - as far as Pippin is concerned he is swearing an oath of service to Denethor, the father of Boromir, who gave his life to try & save him & Merry. Denethor, misunderstands this, possibly deliberately, as an oath of service to Gondor - though, if he does no longer distinguish between himself & Gondor maybe he thinks it is the same thing. Whatever, Pippin swears one oath & Denethor recieves another one entirely. This 'misunderstanding will surface later, when Denethor 'releases' Pippin from 'his' service - ie from service to Gondor - & Pippin says he doesn't want to be released from his oath to Denethor. Denethor recieves Pippin's service without really understanding what the Hobbit has offered. He doesn't take it personally - it is service to the realm, service of a man at arms in wartime as far as he is concerned, not an oath of service to a bereaved father by someone trying to make up for a lost son.

Quote:
But from my word and your service I do not wish to be released while you live. And if they come at last to the Citadel, I hope to be here and stand beside you and earn perhaps the arms that you have given me.'
Finally, we have Merry's oath:

Quote:
'I have a sword,' said Merry, climbing from his seat, and drawing from its black sheath his small bright blade. Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. 'May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Theoden King?' he cried. 'Receive my service, if you will!'
'Gladly will I take it,' said the king; and laying his long old hands upon the brown hair of the hobbit, he blessed him. 'Rise now, Meriadoc, esquire of Rohan of the household of Meduseld!' he said. 'Take your sword and bear it unto good fortune!'
'As a father you shall be to me,' said Merry.
'For a little while,' said Theoden.
Like Sam's oath, this is sworn out of love. Like Pippin's it is an oath sworn to a man, not to a 'realm'. It is a personal commitment, & is understood to be such by Theoden - even if he does not take it as quite as seriously as Merry:

Quote:
The king turned to Merry. 'I am going to war, Master Meriadoc,' he said. 'In a little while I shall take the road. I release you from my service, but not from my friendship. You shall abide here, and if you will, you shall serve the Lady Eowyn, who will govern the folk in my stead.'
'But, but, lord,' Merry stammered, 'I offered you my sword. I do not want to be parted from you like this, Theoden King. And as all my friends have gone to the battle, I should be ashamed to stay behind.'
'But we ride on horses tall and swift,' said Theoden; 'and great though your heart be, you cannot ride on such beasts.'
'Then tie me onto the back of one, or let me hang on a stirrup, or something,' said Merry. 'It is a long way to run; but run I shall, if I cannot ride, even if I wear my feet off and arrive weeks too late.'
We seem to have a number of different kinds of oaths sworn, not all of which are sworn on full knowledge, & not all taken as meant. We've discussed this before on other threads, & maybe this repeats some of those earlier discussions, but as Pippin's oath is so central to this chapter I thought it might be interesting to examine the theme in a bit more detail.
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Old 06-03-2005, 10:54 PM   #4
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You can see that Pippin hasn't fully matured yet because if he had he might have thought twice before he offered his services to Denethor. He still lets his emotions guide him, but thet don't overtake him as much as they used to before.
He is also losing some of that innocence that he had back in book 1 or just some of his ignorance which led to curiosity and drove him to do silly things like throwing the rock down the well in Moria.
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Old 06-05-2005, 11:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
'Dark indeed is the hour,' said the old man, 'and at such times you are wont to come, Mithrandir. But though all the signs forebode that the doom of Gondor is drawing nigh, less now to me is that darkness than my own darkness. It has been told to me that you bring with you one who saw my son die. Is this he?'
This is very similar to the welcome Gandalf got in Meduseld, & on the surface is motivated by similar feelings of grief, yet as Gandalf has said, Denethor can use his grief as a cloak. He is ‘wiser’ than Theoden, yet perhaps that should be ‘cleverer’. Theoden has succumbed to hopelessness for many of the same reasons as Denethor (Shippey points out the similarity of their names, which could almost be anagrams of each other), yet Theoden is still capable of listening to council. Denethor is closed off from all external influence - or so he believes. What we actually see is that while Theoden is capable, through his innate humility, of willingly listening to the words of Gandalf, Denethor has succumbed unwillingly to the words of Sauron. His vision has been corrupted by the Dark Lord till he can only see things as Sauron wishes him to see them, while Theoden still retains his capacity to see true & only requires to be shown the truth to recognise & accept it. Theoden, it seems, has accepted the death of his son as part of the evil of the times,

Denethor seems to see the loss of Boromir as a personal assault on him. Theoden as a result can grieve his loss & move on, Denethor is broken by it, because he sees it as fate being out to get him - everyone is against him, out to destroy him. He is embattled, cut off, waiting for the inevitable end - why bother fighting? He does continue organising the defence of Gondor, but soon he will decide there is no point in that. When we first meet them Theoden seems a worse case than Denethor. The Steward seems more in control of himself, more powerful, more aware & defiant. In actual fact he only seems stronger. The reality is that he is brittle & ready to shatter. What he lacks is Theoden’s inner strength, which is only sleeping.

His words to Gandalf later seem to show his wisdom in conflict with his pride:

Quote:
'Pride would be folly that disdained help and counsel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs.
It would be foolish to reject help & counsel, he claims, yet he will only have the ‘help & counsel’ that suits him. He’s talking contradictory nonsense - which he quite possibly has been doing for a good while, but nobody, we assume, would dare to point this out. Gandalf does, & gets short shrift.

Another thing that struck me was his statement

Quote:
Bring wine and food and seats for the guests,' said Denethor, 'and see that none trouble us for one hour.'
'It is all that I have to spare, for there is much else to heed,' he said to Gandalf.
He can, apparently, only spare an hour - yet how long has he spent staring at the broken horn on his lap?

Quote:
'That is the horn that Boromir always wore!' cried Pippin.
'Verily,' said Denethor. 'And in my turn I bore it, and so did each eldest son of our house, far back into the vanished years before the failing of the kings, since Vorondil father of Mardil hunted the wild kine of Araw in the far fields of Rhun.
This is an appeal to past glory, by a man who has abandoned himself to his fear of total loss. He is conflating history with ‘mythology’. Araw is Orome, & it was believed that the cattle Vorondil hunted had originally belonged to the Valar. It is an appeal to the dead, to those who have gone West. To Denethor the broken horn is a symbol of the breaking of his & Gondor’s link not just with its history but with its glory, & ultimately with the Valar themselves. The future is shrouded in a black cloud & offers nothing, the past has been taken away. In this context, I wonder about his reaction to Pippin’s sword:

Quote:
A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter's evening, passed over the old man's face; but he bent his head and held out his hand, laying the shards of the horn aside. 'Give me the weapon!' he said.
Pippin lifted it and presented the hilt to him. 'Whence came this?' said Denethor. 'Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past?'
In an early draft he calls the blade a ‘sax’, which Tolkien changed, probably because of the ‘primary world’ connections it would conjure up, but its interesting that he should use that term. Denethor’s reaction perhaps implies that he sees in Pippin’s blade a whole & solid connection with the past glories of Gondor, but more importantly, his use of the phrase ‘our kindred’ seems to conflict with his later dismissal of Aragorn as ‘last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship & dignity.’ The ones who made the barrow blade,’in the deep past’, were his (taking ‘our’ to be a use of the ‘Royal We) own kindred, their decendents are ‘a ragged house long bereft of lordship & dignity - when did that particular break happen?

The chapter ends with the (as I think Tolkien called it) ‘Homeric procession’ of forces from outlying parts of the Realm. Their appearance is greeted with joy, yet their passing into the city perhaps deepens the inhabitants’ sense of despair. They hoped for thousands & got hundreds. They need Rohan. The great Darkness sweeps over them in the night, & all the lights in the city have been dimmed. Even Gandalf states ‘There will be no dawn.’ On a first reading we feel their despair, on subsequent readings we know it is mistaken, & that a dawn will come, with the crowing of a cock, the departure of the Lord of the Nazgul - never to return - & the horns of Rohan. Another eucatasptrophe. It is always darkest before the dawn - even when we know the dawn is inevitable. This chapter, as much as it is about Pippin, is about Denethor. We may see the events through Pippin’s eyes, but on another level we see things from Denethor’s perspective: we adopt, without realising it, Denethor’s point of view. Its as if he truly is Gondor. His spirit has settled on the city & on us.

Yet the words of Beregond also echo through this chapter:

Quote:
'Nay, though all things must come utterly to an end in time, Gondor shall not perish yet. Not though the walls be taken by a reckless foe that will build a hill of carrion before them. There are still other fastnesses, and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green.'
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Old 06-08-2005, 03:31 PM   #6
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The idea that Denethor has begun seeing himself as Gondor by this point rings very true and explains some of the Steward’s more mystifying behavior very well. But as for his seeming inconsistency of thought regarding lordship and dignity of his northern kindred, I would hazard to say that he probably thought them less worthy since Arvedui's time, when they had lost all the northern kingdoms. Though I doubt Denethor would have accepted Arvedui himself as king of Gondor viewing the traditional line held by Gondor regarding them.

To be a bit charitable to him on how he was spending his time, it is possible that Denethor only found time to meditate deeply on the broken horn while waiting for Gandalf and Pippin to arrive. And it appears that he was sharp at this point, not off in the deep end at all, even in Gandalf's eyes. So this 'prop' might have been chosen for it's effect in supporting the steward's show of real grief.

Quote:
”Folly?” said Gandalf. “Nay, my lord, when you are a dotard you will die.”
Gandalf says this after he stared down Denethor. Could they have been engaging in some form of osanwe? Tolkien hints, and it seems as though Gandalf contented himself that Denthor’s knowledge was due do the keen sight of Gondorian lords, perhaps a lesser form of osanwe, but it seems as though this display may have served a purpose for Denethor. Perhaps to help screen from Gandalf the knowledge gained via palantír rather than from his messengers. As as for the folly, perhaps Denethor truely recognized his error before his demise.

Also surprising was Pippin's notice of the joy under Gandalf's sorrow. It seems a very Christian concept.

Ah yes, can't forget to mention this little quote, seeing where we are discussing this!

Quote:
'It came out of the mounds that lie on the borders of my country,' said Pippin. "but only evil wights dwell there now, and I will not willingly tell more of them."
Sound advice from Pippin? Come now, not all of us are evil!

Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 06-09-2005 at 03:43 AM. Reason: To fix the mess I had made of it and fill out some thoughts.
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Old 06-08-2005, 07:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
"Folly?” said Gandalf. “Nay, my lord, when you are a dotard you will die.”
Another interesting thing about this quote is that it is a nice bit of foreshadowing/foretelling. Dotage is defined as (dictionary.com):
Quote:
The loss of previously intact mental powers; senility.
I'd say this certainly applies to the despair and death of Denethor, not to be getting ahead of myself to much. The palantir certainly destroys Denethor's hope and sanity enough that he loses his mental powers; he truly does fall into dotage, and guess what? He kills himself, fulfilling Gandalf's words. I had never really noticed this quote before, instead focusing on what followed it, but it really is an interesting line.
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