Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Page apart. No mention of other wives (you do bring more x-ses in than wipe out by this 'previous wife theory', you know that)

I was afraid that it said something along those lines... Pity, it was a nice theory.

Claim was made by Arvedui himself, not by Aranarth (even if we imagine (for a tiny moment) the impossibility of him not being Firiel's son)

Yes, I knew that Arvedui made the claim, and one his own behalf. However, Arvedui's claim rested on Firiel's descent from Anarion, whereas Aragorn makes no mention of Anarion, but explicit mention of Elendil and Isildur.

P.S. Third party may lawfully knock holes in both theories, indicating the whole story as mere typo on Tolkien's part. But I prefer to dream romance behind it, masked Arvedui climbing the walls and swimming over Anduin to (not to lose sight of the title) kiss his beloved, that kind of thing. And little Aranarth being as much a cause for the wedding as political necessity may have been. Things tend to be hushed up in higher up circles, yer honour. Having in mind marriage customs, though, every union is automatically 'in wedlock', so 1940 T.A. may be viewed as the year of 'official rituals', confirming the fact.

cheers

There you have the very reason that I find it unlikely. I just really don't Arvedui, Crown Prince of Arthedain in a time when it needed every captain it had, jumping off to Gondor for two or three years. And the Palantiri were still in possession of both Fornost and Minas Anor, so there is no diplomatic reason for his absence. My personal thought train, therefore, is that Tolkien got the dates somewhat mixed up (as he did in several other places), but that it was never noted or corrected.

[Anguirel]

I want to stick up for Heren Istarion's story. It's such lovely fanfiction! So I'll point out that it's standard in literature, and chivalric tradition, and much of the history of sexual interaction, for men to be lovers at a stage in their career before they become fighters.

I have Tolkien on my side, in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen".

I have historical logic on my side. Before men risked and often lost their lives, they wanted to imprint their genes on the world. Hence breeding sprees before and during the First World War.

And-most incontrovertibly-Shakespeare, who saw into minds and hearts, backs me up. Jaques in "As You Like It", in his Seven Ages of Man speech, lists

-Baby ("mewling and puking")
-Schoolboy ("creeping like a snail unwillingly to school")
-Lover (can't recall how he's described at all...)
-Soldier ("full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard")

For all these reasons, I declare that I envisage Arvedui being educated in courtly ways at Gondor, falling in love with Firiel and only after his passion is consummated and a child secretly born being summoned back to Arnor for war. Tearful farewell. Discovery of Aranarth. Negotiations. Arvedui summoned back to Gondor for a more-than-shotgun marriage.

Furthermore, I'd like to see someone write this...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I have historical logic on my side. Before men risked and often lost their lives, they wanted to imprint their genes on the world. Hence breeding sprees before and during the First World War.

Think that that's biological - in bad times maybe the species can 'breed' an answer to the stressor.

Plus, in regards to going off to war, it's a great line for guys to use..."we may never be together again."

[HerenIstarion]

I want to stick up for Heren Istarion's story. It's such lovely fanfiction

Thanks

Thing being, I acknowledge (and did acknowledge in my previous) high probability of the dates being merely mixed up, after all. It just would not do to contradict myself in matters of chastity of the royal houses of Westernesse too. That's why I said I dreamt romance behind the dates, not stated it.

Probability of Arvedui serving in Gondor in disguise, however, is not that negligible. After all, Aragorn, who was a single governing body of a hundred or so Rangers, spent years there. Presumably, he would have been more needed North than Arvedui, who was free unless his father died, and even than would have had a whole officialdom at his disposal to rule when he was away, say, swimming across Anduin and stuff.

Besides, Aragorn (Thorongil) probably (apart from his Sauron-defying activities, Denethor was not that blind, after all) was 'studying the field' - i.e. preparing himself for probable take over of the throne. Arvedui may have been in Gondor with the same issue in mind. Don't take it that long, I do not imply he was planning coup d'etat, but the Northern line always considered itself superior, Anarion's blooldline added or not. Cf:

Appendices to LoTR

'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."
'To this Arvedui replied: "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.

And then anti-Arvedui party of Gondor goes and hastily digs up Eärnil, 'victorious captain', more a figurehead to my taste. Feels like frantic endeavour, desperation to have anybody but not the northerners in power, this time successfull. Seems like political fan-fiction (not without romantic elements) would be more in order, as to how Arvedui reconnoitred the political wheather in the South. (And fell in love with King's daughter. Maybe not even without political considerations)

The post being mostly speculative, but nevertheless plausible, I reckon.

P.S. I have a feeling we have lost something along the way. Lemme see... um... mmm... Ah! Arwen! It was about love, and we are already knee-deep in politics. The way of life I reckon. You start out full of love, long curls and bright t-shirts, and end up an organization man with no hair at all and an austere tie. Poot.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I want to stick up for Heren Istarion's story. It's such lovely fanfiction! So I'll point out that it's standard in literature, and chivalric tradition, and much of the history of sexual interaction, for men to be lovers at a stage in their career before they become fighters.

I have Tolkien on my side, in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen".

Aha!!

The primary reason, right there, that I do not find Heren's theory totally convincing. You DON'T have Tolkien on your side. Whatever PJ may have intended in the movies, I think it should be clear that TOLKIEN, in his own mind if never explicitly stated in the books, saw Aragorn and Arwen as waiting for marriage. Now, this doesn't necessarily affect Arvedui's story. After all, just because Aragorn is noble doesn't mean his great-manys-grandfather was. However, Tolkien (the man, if not necessarily the book) is NOT on your side.

As for your suggestion that Aragorn was more needed in Arnor than Arvedui had been, I doubt it. The Dunedain of the North had been led by somebody other than Aragorn during all the long years that he was growing up in Rivendell. Furthermore, Arvedui was a prince (and if he was in a Boromir-like situation as I imagine, then he was also a major captain as well) at a time when Angmar was a very dangerous threat to Arthedain's survival. Whereas in Aragorn's day, the danger was to Gondor, from Mordor.

Plainly not the same.

Resting my case for the moment,

Formendacil

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

The Book:

I never in my wildest dreams imagined that Aragorn and Arwen had anything going on apart from stolen kisses and handholding. Tolkien was too much of a prude (by today's standards, of course ) for that sort of thing. In all seriousness, it would have taken so much away from the high tragedy.

Aragorn and Arwen were very much the proper noble couple. Sure they loved each other with all the depths of the deepest oceans and all that poetic nonsense, but Arwen loved her father also, and respected him. If Elrond said that they couldn't get married until Aragorn proved himself, then the two would understand that the physical aspect of their romance was on hiatus until the world was a safer place. Honestly, that makes it so much more important for the good guys to win, because then our hero (Aragorn) gets his heart's desire (Arwen), and you know that the entire romance was pure, noble, honorable, loving, and above all, deserved.

Never went through my head that they might have been engaging in hanky panky in some private cluster of trees somewhere. That's just so... common. It takes away from the idea that they are above us, and truly noble. There is, of course, noble in birth, and noble in deed. These two are supposed to be both.

----------------------

The Movie:

A translucent silk nightie? Very pretty, very delicate, and above all, very revealing. I never would have put an Elf in something like that. I'd put a woman who's been married a grand total of three weeks to the man of her dreams in something like that.

When I first saw the dream scene, I think I looked something like this:

But then it ran through my head that this was Aragorn's dream. Subconscious thought. Of course he's going to be dreaming that he's with his true love, in a place with no danger, where they can simply be together.

But at the same time, I was still shocked by the whole kissing-while-prone thing. Reminds me of the talks that I and seven other teenage girls have at the lunch table (actually, I'm usually concentrating on eating quickly so I can get back to whatever project I'm working on, but that's another story). You know the "...and then his mother walked in!" type stories. It's so... not... tragic.

Yes, she's telling him not to give up hope. Yes, he's feeling hopeless and his true love encourages him. But did they really have to make out to get the point across? I suppose that they wanted to show the audience that even though he kept giving Eowyn meaningful looks (and yes, tp, I agree with you about those), that his heart and thoughts belonged to Arwen.

But really... an almost see-through night gown while he's comfortably lying in her personal chambers? If Galadriel had seen that thought I bet Aragorn would have blushed.

[Anguirel]

Quite, Fea! "No Elessar for you, naughty boy..."

Formendacil, all I mean by quoting the Tale is that Aragorn fell in love with Arwen before he departed for Gondor to become a soldier-reinforcing the love first, war later, point. Also, Gondor was quite as threatened by the Wainriders as Arthedain was by Angmar. The only difference was that Earnil was a great general and Arvedui an indifferent one (not to mention possessing a really depressing, morale lowering name...)

[HerenIstarion]

It's merely a speculation!

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I acknowledge high probability of the dates being merely mixed up

See?

and if he was in a Boromir-like situation as I imagine, then he was also a major captain as well

You bring your own evil with you to Lorien. Major captain as he was, Boromir was actually sent to Imladris. Speculating, as it were, about political reasons of Arvedui serving in Gondor, I don't see barriers for him being sent away.

...Arvedui an indifferent one...

Would not bet my money on that. Circumstances being what they were, he was an unlucky one, true...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Major captain as he was, Boromir was actually sent to Imladris.

Some might argue that it was Faramir who was sent and Boromir who went.... sorry OT.....