more than 9?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

I think, that Sauron would have never thought, that someone could take his Ring from him. That's a good example, how someone could be blinded by his own power.

Isn't that usually the case in which one is one's worst enemy?

And regarding the 'other' rings: my assumption has always been that except for the dwarven Seven that the other rings were worn by the owners. Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf wore theirs; Sauron did until he got an Isuldurian manicure, and I assume that the Nine had theirs, and so Sauron had no need to physically hold them. The 'control' of the Nine was via the Rings - like a cell phone that (1) you couldn't get rid of, (2) you always had to answer, and (3) you had to do whatever the caller told you to do ("Hi...ya, this is the Eye...hey, go to the Shire and find some midget called Baggins...").

The Dwarves, immune to becoming wraiths, were able to 'give up' their Rings - not that they did so until the very end, and of course not willingly, but my point is that they were not held by the Rings as were the Nine. Sauron collected what remained of the Seven so that, if necessary, he could use them again to corrupt a new family of Dwarves.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sauron collected what remained of the Seven so that, if necessary, he could use them again to corrupt a new family of Dwarves.

Need it have been Dwarves, in fact? I don't recall any innate difference between the lesser Rings of Power not made by Celebrimbor-that is, the Seven and the Nine. Could Sauron not have gifted human followers with the recovered Dwarven rings? The Mouth of Sauron, for instance, or Herumor of "the New Shadow"? (Herumor is a particularly interesting case as possession of a ring might just justify his being the same Herumor that lorded it over the Haradrim in the Second Age.)

[Eruanna]

I like Alatar's analogy of the Ring being like a drug and the Ring bearers like addicts. It certainly goes a long way towards explaining the effect it had on certain people, for just as some seem to be able to resist drugs (alcohol, tobacco whatever) so some could resist the Ring.

I had always assumed that Sauron possessed the rings himself and that they were not worn by the Nazgul. When Frodo puts on the Ring as the Nazgul attack on Weathertop, he sees them in their wraith form; hair, helmets, swords and hands are described. Rings are not. In Lothlorien, Galadriel tells Frodo that none of the rings can be hidden from the Ring bearer, so surely he would have seen rings if they had been worn.

As for using the three remaining Dwarf rings to corrupt others. Would the rings have been able to exert a corrupting force if Sauron had not yet regained the One Ring? It was the 'Master Ring', for want of a better title, made in secret to control and corrupt the others. Without it, would not the other rings made originally by the Elves have reverted to their original purpose and therefore been useless to him?

Originally posted by Alatar: The One is truly a being in itself. Not sure of the right word (it'll come to me sometime after I'm away from my computer), but is not the One Ring a 'little Sauron,' or id?

This idea of the One Ring being 'sentient' has always fascinated me. It seems like a living being at times and is often referred to as such in the books. It adapts its size to the bearer's finger, it abandons its bearer(s) and appears to slip onto Bilbo's finger of its own accord. I suppose that it is open to interpretation, being magical and all. The idea of it being a 'little Sauron' conjures up all sorts of pictures!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Need it have been Dwarves, in fact? I don't recall any innate difference between the lesser Rings of Power not made by Celebrimbor-that is, the Seven and the Nine. Could Sauron not have gifted human followers with the recovered Dwarven rings? The Mouth of Sauron, for instance, or Herumor of "the New Shadow"? (Herumor is a particularly interesting case as possession of a ring might just justify his being the same Herumor that lorded it over the Haradrim in the Second Age.)

Sorry, not exactly sure what you mean. Are you saying that one of the dwarven rings could have been recovered and redistributed to ensnare men? Would these men become wraiths like the Nine or simply covetous/greedy?

My point (if I were making one) was that Sauron knew of the Three, knew where the Nine were and was collecting the Seven. Some of these were consumed by the Dragons, yet a few (four?) still existed. Wasn't Thráin's Ring taken from him in Dol Guldur, and wasn't this the same ring that Balin was looking for in Moria? Could one of these be the same promised by Sauron, base father of lies, to Dáin Ironfoot in return for information regarding Bilbo Baggins?

[Anguirel]

You are right in every respect.

However...I was under the impression that the Seven and the Nine were intrinsically identical in their effects. The difference was extrinsic, in that men were utterly corrupted as the twist in their power, and Dwarves made covetous as the twist in their wealth. Working on this principle, one of the Seven given to a man ought to have the same properties as one of the Nine given to a man. Am I correct?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

However...I was under the impression that the Seven and the Nine were intrinsically identical in their effects. The difference was extrinsic, in that men were utterly corrupted as the twist in their power, and Dwarves made covetous as the twist in their wealth. Working on this principle, one of the Seven given to a man ought to have the same properties as one of the Nine given to a man. Am I correct?

Was going to say 'disagree,' but started to think about it a bit...

As Celebrimbor and Annatar have not yet returned my calls, I'll speculate on the Rings specificity. The Seven and Nine, as far as we know, were never worn by people of different races (races referring to Elves, Dwarves, Men, Hobbits, etc), so there is no information there. Two of the Three, as far as we know, were worn by Elves exclusively. Narya was worn by both Cirdan and Gandalf, and so we have an example where the same ring imparted the same power to wearers of different races.

The One, which is a bit different than the others, was worn by a Maia, a Man and three hobbits. To each power was given, yet only in accord to each's innate ability. Don't think that the Ring made Sauron invisible, but this ability was given to the other four bearers. Hobbits and Men could be subsets of the same species/race, and so not sure how much information we get here.

Not even going to mention Bombadil...

So based on this scant evidence I would assume that a dwarven ring on the hand of a man would ignite a fierce desire for gold. A human ring on the hand of a dwarf would allow for some 'power' yet I don't think that a dwarf would be able to (1) use it to dominate the wills of other dwarves or (2) become a wraith. It may open the dwarf to suggestion by the bearer of the One, and turn the dwarf to the dark side, but I don't think that you would get a dwarven Nazgul (which is a good thing as they would look silly atop black horses...).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I disagree with the idea that the Rings of Power were race-specific when they were forged. I checked out "Of the Rings of Power" in the Sil, and find no mention of differences in their making; only when Sauron/Annatar distributed them did they work on the recipients. Here are some of the pertinent quotes:

In those days the [Elven] smiths... made Rings of Power.

Now the Elves made many rings...

[Sauron] demanded that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.

The chapter goes on to tell of the different corruption of Dwarves and Men, and all that is said (way too much to quote here) shows that the difference was in the recipients, not the rings themselves. So basically, that backs up what Anguirel said, and I agree.

[alatar]

Thanks for the quotation. It's always helpful to have the source material presented.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I disagree with the idea that the Rings of Power were race-specific when they were forged. I checked out "Of the Rings of Power" in the Sil, and find no mention of differences in their making; only when Sauron/Annatar distributed them did they work on the recipients.

Would you say that the rings had different innate powers? Were the Seven all alike or at least similar? Were the sixteen (Nine human and Seven dwarven) all alike?

Or did Sauron, having a big bag of rings, either select specfic sets that would work best with specific races or, when creating them (by hand or by proxy), did he have specific races in mind? Did he know what the common desire of each race (wealth, power, beauty, etc) was and so created rings that would fulfill the same, thus being more attractive bait to the potential addict?

Though he had no hand in making the Three, we know that these were (1) different from each other and (2) attractive to the elves. Where the Seven and Nine as different within each set? I thought that somewhere it states that the seven hoards of the dwarves all had a ring at its beginning, and so I would assume that these were all similar.

Would men, using the same Three, become Nazgul? It's hard for me to see that they would as I always think of the Three as good. And would the elves be attracted to the rings of the dwarves?

I don't think that Sauron, who weighs all things to something or other (or some quote that I can't remember), allowed chance to distribute the rings of power.