Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

That's cool. I'm mostly basing it on the relationship between Beren & Luthien, since I'm pretty much convinced that they did it right away. Not that it matters.

Ah well so am I and in HoME Tolkien categorically states that they didn't!!! But I posted in Ooh la la so again I won't repeat!.. But going on the silmarilion text ... our modern eyes read a lot more into some things so I do understand why it is read that way - I mean the mores re pre-marital sex have just about completely reversed - when Tolkien was a young man, couples were expected to wait and a nos jours ..... Oh Lal as usual has said it so much better!

Personally the literary did they /didn't they that has always intrigues me was Dorothea and Mr Casaubon in Middlemarch ...

[Eruanna]

Originally posted by Alatar:
however, being married more than just a few years, I would not consider my and my wife's life together to be considered fantasy romance. Don't people prefer to see something fantastic, whether it be 'gymnastics' between two buff bods or tear-extracting romance where the couple just have the most perfect conversations, words on their lips, meaningful looks, and remember every anniversary with a unique and well-thought out gift (hand-made, of course)?

I think that most people would prefer the fantasy version. After all, we want to be entertained or lifted out of our more ordinary lives for a few hours.
I too have been married for more than a few years. So long, in fact that just remembering the anniversary is enough, let alone the unique, hand-made gift

As to that part of your original question, 'is even the suggestion of a non-consumated relationship fitting for a fantasy movie involving high romance?'
I would say yes, it is quite fitting. These are not everyday, mundane characters. Arwen is a sort of 'Holy Grail' of womanhood, she is not to be won without the greatest hardship and sacrifice. That is what makes their eventual wedding so satisfying.
I must say that the more I read of Elven custom and lore, the more I agree with Lalwendë and Mithalwen that Aragorn and Arwen would have been considered already married if they had 'done the deed'. This is definitely a case of PJ muddying the waters with his having Arwen set off for the Havens.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

I think that most people would prefer the fantasy version. After all, we want to be entertained or lifted out of our more ordinary lives for a few hours.
I too have been married for more than a few years. So long, in fact that just remembering the anniversary is enough, let alone the unique, hand-made gift

Note that my wife and I have a great relationship, but would assume that the 16-25 years old crowd would find our life a bit dull and definitely unromantic - as we would now, being older and possibly wiser, see their relationships as a bit silly and shallow.

As to that part of your original question, 'is even the suggestion of a non-consumated relationship fitting for a fantasy movie involving high romance?'
I would say yes, it is quite fitting. These are not everyday, mundane characters. Arwen is a sort of 'Holy Grail' of womanhood, she is not to be won without the greatest hardship and sacrifice. That is what makes their eventual wedding so satisfying.
I must say that the more I read of Elven custom and lore, the more I agree with Lalwendë and Mithalwen that Aragorn and Arwen would have been considered already married if they had 'done the deed'. This is definitely a case of PJ muddying the waters with his having Arwen set off for the Havens.

I had wondered that we were reading too much into the scenes as maybe today's youthful romantics might see the same and never think that that something had occurred. As stated, it could be possible that people today could be that familiar without being intimate - don't know.

[Lush]

In the films we see Arwen heading for the boat to Valinor, after the scene where they have supposedly slept together

I thought that was one of the most screwed-up plot changes in the entire three films combined. I think they simply added that for dramatic effect; I do not believe that their intention was to try to define the status of the Aragorn and Arwen relationship. Therefore, I have a hard time using that as evidence to back up either argument in regards to whether or not they were already "doing it."

our modern eyes read a lot more into some things so I do understand why it is read that way - I mean the mores re pre-marital sex have just about completely reversed - when Tolkien was a young man, couples were expected to wait and a nos jours .....

Yes, but if we are to agree that for Elves sex is an act of marriage, then there is no such thing as pre-marital sex. It's not even an issue. Hence, if Aragorn & Arwen, or Beren & Luthien, are "doing it," then that's their business. I looked back at my Luthien thread to refresh my memory on your comments there; and I agree that it throws new light on the issue, but I'm also not sure that Beren & Luthien went on that dangerous quest just to be able to, you know, have sex. I think Beren's reputation and Luthien's love for her father were at stake as much as anything. I would agree that having no public ceremony was not really done, but when you take the entire tale in context and all the other horrible stuff going on around Beren & Luthien at that time, it actually makes sense for them to keep their commitment private.

Could you possibly provide the HoME quote you are referring to?

[HerenIstarion]

(Laws and Customs among the Eldar)

The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among
them.

Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar. It took place in this way. Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in days of peace); but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the
judgement of the parents of either party.

In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrothed gave silver rings one to another. According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound then to stand for one year at least, and it often stood for longer. During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings, the rings then being molten and not again used for a
betrothal. Such was the law; but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

Nonetheless among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fulfilled. Love was not always returned; and more than one might desire one other for spouse. Concerning this, the only cause by which sorrow entered the bliss of Aman, the Valar were in doubt. Some held that it came from the marring of Arda, and from the Shadow under which the Eldar awoke; for thence only (they said) comes grief or disorder. Some held that it came of love itself, and of the freedom of each fea, and was a mystery of the nature of the Children of Eru.

After the betrothal it was the part of the betrothed to appoint the time of their wedding, when at least one year had passed. Then at a feast, again shared by the two houses, the marriage was celebrated. At the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and blessed them. For this blessing
there was a solemn form, but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwe by the father; and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time). The betrothed then received back one from the other their silver rings (and treasured them); but they gave in exchange slender rings of
gold, which were worn upon the index of the right hand.

Among the Noldor also it was a custom that the bride's mother should give to the bridegroom a jewel upon a chain or collar; and the bridegroom's father should give a like gift to the bride. These gifts were sometimes given before the feast. (Thus the gift of Galadriel to Aragorn, since she was in place of Arwen's mother, was in part a bridal gift and earnest of the
wedding that was later accomplished.)

But these ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage; they were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested, and the union was recognized which would join not only the betrothed but their two houses together. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete. In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the
Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to
another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged
and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike
indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and
exile and wandering, such marriages were often made. [Thus Beren and
Tinuviel could lawfully have wedded, but for Beren's oath to Thingol.]

The underlined sentence probably expressing the following:

(Ephesians 5:28-5:30)

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

also

Corinthians 6:16 - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

also

Mark 10:8 - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

The meaning being, the mere act of love is enough for the 'flesh' to become 'one', the rest being rituals

So, in Elves Tolkien was making 'real' what he held to be real for humans: sex is an act of marriage.

Aragorn and Arwen: I do not suppose they were 'doing it':

Compare wording, btw:

(In Lorien, Aragorn aged 49)

But Aragorn answered: "Alas! I cannot foresee it, and how lit may come to pass is hidden from me. Yet with your hope I will hope. And the Shadow I utterly reject. But neither, lady, is the Twilight for me; for I am mortal, and if you will cleave to me, Evenstar, then the Twilight you must also renounce."

'And she stood then as still as a white tree, looking into the West, and at last she said: "I will cleave to you, Dúnadan, and turn from the Twilight. Yet there lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin." She loved her father dearly.

with:

Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

(Consciously so in the revision )

That was a side note, to back me up in my quoting of the New Testament. Now for the 'doing it':

Rivendell, Aragorn aged 20

'But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts. One day, therefore, before the fall of the year he called Aragorn to his chamber, and he said: "Aragorn, Arathorn's son, Lord of the Dúnedain, listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it."

and also

(Rivendell, Aragorn aged around 50)

My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to the. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace lot less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.

and finally

And at last when all was done he entered into the inheritance of his fathers and received the crown of Gondor and sceptre of Arnor; and at Midsummer in the year of the Fall of Sauron he took the hand of Arwen Undómiel, and they were wedded in the city of the Kings.

'Took the hand' implies it was a first time.

cheers

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

Yes, but if we are to agree that for Elves sex is an act of marriage, then there is no such thing as pre-marital sex. It's not even an issue.

You failed to include the vital first phrase "going on the silmarillion text" by which I meant if you did not know HoME and so the laws and customs of the Eldar it is easy to read certain phrases as evidence that they had consummated their relationship before marriage. Obviously if you know the "law" the consummation would have been the marriage.....

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lush

Yes, but if we are to agree that for Elves sex is an act of marriage, then there is no such thing as pre-marital sex. It's not even an issue.

To back up just a step, assume that in the movie just after the Bridge scene that Aragorn and Arwen have a grand moment of passion (or whatever euphemism you'd like to add). Now, I have no problem if people 'see' that as that's their thing.

Now in TTT we have Aragorn in Arwen's room. Okay, so we allow that they've experienced physical intimacy, but do they have to act like a mortal man and woman not of high/royal lineage? It's a fantasy film, he's the heir of kings and she's an elven princess, they are in Rivendell in Dad's house, important events are on the horizon and Aragorn acts (to me) like he's in some dorm room with some woman he's been sharing space with for a few semesters - nothing to spectacular going on here, and this is just another day.

Where's the fantasy, the dream-like quality of the scene? I expect the almost-King to keep his shirt buttoned up unless off camera.

Or do modern films have only 'mortal/flawed' heroes/princes and heroines/princesses?

[Lush]

'Took the hand' implies it was a first time.

Or it implies that he took her hand. Ok, no, seriously, I just don't get it; because first we see Elrond harping on about "no troth" until you prove yourself boy! Then he goes and proves himself, and Arwen and he do end up engaged and "wander" together in Lorien and stuff like that. The whole "troubled times, times of war, times of wandering" situation is what seemed like the grey area to me in all of this. I've really never seriously speculated about it though, because it seemed like a giant waste of time and didn't add or take away from my enjoyment of the books (what did take away from it was the fact that Arwen was such a bit player; perhaps me seeing something in her relationship with Aragorn prior to the official ceremony implies a subconscious interpretation and consequent rejection of the image of Arwen as trophy...Hello, Dr. Freud).

You failed to include the vital first phrase "going on the silmarillion text" by which I meant if you did not know HoME and so the laws and customs of the Eldar it is easy to read certain phrases as evidence that they had consummated their relationship before marriage. Obviously if you know the "law" the consummation would have been the marriage.....

The part of HoME that I find not entirely clear on the subject is the last bit, that Heren provided: "It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete. In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of theEldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made. [Thus Beren and Tinuviel could lawfully have wedded, but for Beren's oath to Thingol.]"

What has always confused me is the fact that on one side, you have all of this romantic stuff going on between Beren & Luthien, and then all the tension and anger and oath-taking when the parents get wind of it. It's almost as if Tolkien contradicts himself, because a private commitment seems to have been made before Beren took that oath. HoME & the Sil do play off each other in interesting ways; though it seems that on this board, people tend to take the Sil less seriously (which disappoints me, because I find it to be infinitely more readable). Part of the reason I started the thread on Luthien & Beren way back in the day was because of all the conflicting reports you get on this stuff, and nevermind the fact that we all tend to through in a little bit of our worldview in while we're at it.

. Okay, so we allow that they've experienced physical intimacy, but do they have to act like a mortal man and woman not of high/royal lineage?

Well, technically Aragorn is mortal. And Arwen is about to follow suit (or she already may have, except for that silly "boat to Valinor" episode that completely breaks the flow).

and Aragorn acts (to me) like he's in some dorm room with some woman he's been sharing space with for a few semesters - nothing to spectacular going on here, and this is just another day.

Hey, hey, don't knock the dorm room, man. Serious commitments and great dramas erupt there. No, what I really mean is, I actually enjoyed the idea of seeing Aragorn and Arwen in a "non-spectacular" setting. Less pretentious that way.

I expect the almost-King to keep his shirt buttoned up unless off camera.

I think we've entered the personal tastes area now; I don't really feel that an unbuttoned shirt subtracts from the fantasy. I hardly even noticed that it was ubuttoned, until you brought it up, that is! But that's me.

Or do modern films have only 'mortal/flawed' heroes/princes and heroines/princesses?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "flawed." The two characters are shown to have a deep commitment to each other (once again, aside from the stupid boat to Valinor thing; if anything, I'd be more critical of that) while they engage the forces of evil and battle temptation. I don't see any flaws in that scene that one could write off as modern reinventions; at least "flaw" is not the word I would use.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lush

I think we've entered the personal tastes area now; I don't really feel that an unbuttoned shirt subtracts from the fantasy. I hardly even noticed that it was ubuttoned, until you brought it up, that is! But that's me.

Not that it put me over the edge either (unlike the Valinor boat ride... ), it's just that PJ did it deliberately, and so I figured that he was trying to say something.

Or maybe the costume crew was too busy with the "To Valinor or Bust!" crowd to notice.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "flawed." The two characters are shown to have a deep commitment to each other (once again, aside from the stupid boat to Valinor thing; if anything, I'd be more critical of that) while they engage the forces of evil and battle temptation. I don't see any flaws in that scene that one could write off as modern reinventions; at least "flaw" is not the word I would use.

Your word is better - pretentious. I want my heroes and heroines larger than life, not at my level or lower. This isn't Sam and Rosie (wasn't Sam's shirt buttoned in the Green Dragon? ) but the new rulers of Middle Earth.

Thanks for your comments.