Smith of Wootton Major in Middle Earth?

[littlemanpoet]

I've been reading a chapter a day (more or less) in The Hobbit and I came across the following aside where the wood-elves are introduced: speaking of the wood-elves:

They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World

So the Light-elves are the Vanyar, the Deep-elves are the Noldor, and the Sea-elves are the Teleri.

But that's not my main point in bringing up the quote: Valinor is called Faerie!

Way out on a limb here, but it's a nice limb .... .... suppose the Star gave Smith the unique permission to go to Valinor!

[Bêthberry]

Or Fairie came to be called Valinor, lmp

Well done! This is a fascinating observation and serves to suggest also the merit in having a Chapter by Chapter reading club for The Hobbit when the one on LotR concludes.

[littlemanpoet]

Either way, Bêthberry, Alf would therefore be Manwë, and the Queen of Faerie would be Varda! Such company Smith kept! Not that I'm convinced of this, but it's fun to imagine it this way.

[HerenIstarion]

Is this just an example of one of those common themes that haunted Tolkien's mind

yes

[davem]

Originally Posted by LMP

But that's not my main point in bringing up the quote: Valinor is called Faerie!

We have to remember that TH was not intended to be part of the Legendarium, & Tolkien merely made use of certain elements from it. Quite possibly he was using them merely to give background to the story, without intending them to be analysed so deeply. Of course, TH wasn't the only story in which he did this.
There's an interesting note to the text of Roverandom:

the shadowy seas ... and the light of Faery upon the waves
The earliest text has: It was the whale who took them to the Bay of Fairyland beyond the Magic Isles, & they saw far off in the West the Shores of Fairyland.#, & the Mountains of the Last Land & the Light of Fairyland upon the waves.' I Tolkien's mythology the Shadowy Seas & the Magic Isles hide & guard Aman (Elvenhome, & the home of the Valar or Gods) from the rest of the world.

The final text continues:

Roverandom thought he caught a glimpse of the city of the Elves on the green hill beneath the mountains, a glint of white far away; but Uin (the great whale of the story) dived again so suddenly that he could not be sure. If he was right, he is one of the few creaures, on two legs or four, who can walk about our own lands & say that they have glimpsed that other land, however far away.
'I should catch it, if this was found out!' said Uin. Noone from the Outer Lands is supposed ever to come here; & few ever do now. Mum's the word!'

While TH did get taken up into the Legendarium, Roverandom did not, & Smith, I believe, was not meant to be included either. Having said that, I think it would be easier to include Roverandom in the mythology then it would Smith - after all the mentions of Fairyland/'Valinor' & its geography in that work are more explicit than in Smith (or even in TH come to that). Of course, if we did include Roverandom then it would make it a bit easier to explain the talking animals in TH & LotR!

[littlemanpoet]

davem:

Smith, I believe, was not meant to be included either.

Oh, I know.

But imagine if it were.... Who were those Elven warriors that came out of the silent sea? Feanor and his sons plus some hangers on, just after the kinslaying?

Yeah, I know it's a really, really steep reach, but heck why not?

Of course, if we did include Roverandom then it would make it a bit easier to explain the talking animals in TH & LotR!

Having just read the chapters on Beorn and the Spiders, I really don't have any trouble with the talking beasts. They just feel like they fit in The Hobbit. And that Fox in the early part of the FotR, I always loved that little inclusion. It just helped to make Middle Earth that much more of a place I want to go.

H=I:Is this just an example of one of those common themes that haunted Tolkien's mind?

yes

Aw, do ya really think so? (Har har.)

[Findegil]

I also like to speculate who were the Elven warriors. The benefit of it is that we might be able to determine the placement of Smith within the timescale of Middle-Earth and thus get some further idea if the inclusion of Smith into the legendarium is likely or not.

If we assume that Smith did visit Valinor, than the only elvenwarriors coming back to it were the Vanyar and Noldor of Finarfin after the final defeat of Morgoth. Smithwould thus be placed around the end of the First Age and the beginning of the Second.
I doubt much if the Queen of Faery is Varda and Alf Manwe. It would rather fit the story to take some elvish leaders here. But the only story that would come to mind is that of the Lost Tales in a very forced combination with some other source: If Ingwe died in the War of Wrath (as he did in LT) and Ingwiel his son did follow Telemektar in watching the sky against Melkors return than Alf could be his son that was call back to Valinor to take up the kingdom.

But we can not be sure if it was to Valinor that Smith did go. The geography he described is not fully consistent with what we know about Valinor or any other part of Arda described by Tolkien in detail. In a place the land of Faery in Smith is seen as a isle. This could be a hint to Tol Eressea in the later Ages when it was again inhabited by the Elves from Beleriand. But I remember no event in the history of Arda where elvenwarriors of Tol Eressea would take part.

An other isle that comes to mind is that of Balar. Between the year of the Sun 473 of the First Age and the end of that Age the isle was inhabited by Elves, while an approached to it would be possible to nearly uninhabited lands. Further on it was told that Círdan's people made swift landings up and down the coast before they were driven from Birthombar and Eglarest, it seems possible therefore that what Smith saw were warriors coming back to Balar after such a ride.
Further on we could also in this light interpret the message of the Queen to Alf (read on carefully, what comes now is based on the speculation just made):
Who could be called king living at Balar? Non else than Gil-galad. We do not hear that he ever had a wife but the Queen of Faery must not necessarily be his wife.
If we take a some what forced interpretation we could say that with the answer that Smith got when he asked were the king was ('He has not told us.') was meant king Turgon. Thus after the fall of Gondolin became known at Balar, the Queen of Faery - Orodreth wife, the mother of Gil-galad would be nearest to this possition - called for Gil-galad to come back since he was now the king ('The time has come.').

Respectfully
Findegil