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Old 04-19-2005, 02:44 PM   #1
davem
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davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Where to start? certainly it seems as if this is a ‘transitional’ chapter, merely intended to get the characters from Henneth Annun to the Mountains. CT points out that Tolkien added in an extra day in this chapter to bring the chronology into line with events on the other side of the Anduin, hence the slow build up of menace in this chapter, with the gradual darkening of the skies & the slow increase of the ‘darkness of Mordor’ spilling over the Mountains. Another example of serendipity.

Another thing he mentions is that the staffs given to the Hobbits by Faramir originally had heads like shepherd’s crooks. One wonders why Tolkien changed his mind about this - perhaps the religious symbolism of the Bishop’s Crozier seemed too blatant? As Esty has pointed out, the ‘virtue’ placed on the staffs is quite interesting - placed by whom? Does this mean the staffs are ‘magical’? Also, what is the significance, if any, of the fact that both Frodo & Sam will lose their staffs by the end of this volume, at the darkest, most desperate point in their story up to then? Is Tolkien using the loss (& in one case the breaking) of the staffs to emphasise the hopelessness of the Hobbits state at that point, implying that the virtue of the staffs may have failed, & that there may be no ‘finding’ or ‘returning’?

The most significant incident in this chapter for me used to be the moment at the Cross-roads, but now its something else. As many of you may know, I’m a member of the Tolkien Society, & I’ve been to their annual Oxonmoot weekend in September for the last three years. The culmination of the weekend is Enyalie (sp?), when we visit Tolkien & Edith’s grave. Every year there is a short reading from the book, & at my first visit to Tolkien’s final resting place it was the passage where Frodo & Sam said farewell to Faramir, so this chapter is far from insignificant to me - in fact, it is now one of the most significant in the whole book....

Faramir’s final farewell to Frodo & Sam struck me also this time -

Quote:
He embraced the hobbits then, after the manner of his people, stooping, and placing his hands upon their shoulders, and kissing their foreheads.
This is the way Frodo says his final farewell to Sam. This, it seems, is a Numenorean custom, perhaps, who knows, inherited from the Elves. Are we seeing at the end, in Frodo’s farewell, another sign of his growth into ‘Elvishness’?

Whatever, we do see Gollum’s growing malice surfacing:

Quote:
"Have they gone at last?" said Gollum. 'Nassty wicked Men! Smeagol's neck still hurts him, yes it does. Let's go!"
'Yes, let us go," said Frodo. "But if you can only speak ill of those who showed you mercy, keep silent!"
Always forgives, he does, yes, yes, even nice Master's little trickses. Oh yes, nice Master, nice Smeagol!"
Rereading this passage I’m struck by the sentence: 'Nice Master!" said Gollum. ‘’Smeagol was only joking. Tolkien tells us that Gollum is speaking even though he refers to himself by his old Hobbit name - is he telling us that the ‘two’ have now become ‘one’? Certainly, Smeagollum’s snide comment that he even forgives ‘Master’s little trickses’ shows us the exact opposite - he hasn’t forgiven ‘Master’ at all. Its interesting that neither Frodo nor Sam attempt to explain to Gollum why Frodo did what he did - did they feel that they would be wasting their breath, or was it more that they didn’t actually want him too close, that they didn’t actually want him ‘back’?

Something else caught my attention:

Quote:
Frodo shuddered as he looked again at the distant pinnacles now dwindling into night, and the sound of the water seemed cold and cruel: the voice of Morgulduin, the polluted stream that flowed from the Valley of the Wraiths.
Haven’t we been told that the voice & presence of Ulmo ran through all the waters of Middle-earth, even that water, of all the elements, retained an echo of the Music of the Ainur? For the ‘voice’ of Morgulduin to seem ‘cold & cruel’, taken along with Faramir’s warning not to drink from any stream that flows out of Imlad Morgul, seems to imply that we are dealing with a ‘pollution’ more potent, & more evil than merely toxic chemicals.... I couldn’t help being reminded of the river of Mirkwood in TH which brought loss of consciousness - loss of ‘self’...

Then we have Sam’s dream:

Quote:
‘Off hunting, I suppose," said Sam and yawned. It was his turn to sleep first, and he was soon deep in a dream. He thought he was back in the Bag End garden looking for something; but he had a heavy pack on his back, which made him stoop. It all seemed very weedy and rank somehow, and thorns
and bracken were invading the beds down near the bottom hedge.
'A job of work for me, I can see; but I'm so tired," he kept on saying. Presently he remembered what he was looking for. 'My pipe!" he said, and with that he woke up.
"Silly!" he said to himself, as he opened his eyes and wondered why he was lying down under the hedge. "It's in your pack all the time!" Then 385 he realized, first that the pipe might be in his pack but he had no leaf, and next that he was hundreds of miles from Bag End.
This is a deeply symbolic dream, & tells us something about the dreamer himself. This is no longer the old Sam, who in the house of Bombadil dreamt nothing at all while his companions, Frodo especially, dreamt deep..

The Garden is overgrown & rank, & is slowly being invaded by thorns & bracken - chaos is reasserting itself, the fragile work of ‘humans’, their struggle to keep the wild in check, is failing. Its interesting that he is looking for his pipe, symbolic of the comforts of home. The ‘garden’ is being absorbed back into unconscious nature, ‘Home’ will at this rate soon be no more....

Finally we encounter the statue of the King (which one?) at the cross-roads. Obviously the head, with it’s single eye, symbolises Sauron. Sauron is the new ‘king’. Yet its interesting that his ‘head’ stands on the body of another - perhaps a symbol of the effect of his power, & by extension the power of the Ring, which takes over the mind (the ‘head’) of the individual, & dominates them....Yet, though the ‘head’ is cast down it regains its crown. This moment for Frodo seems to be for him what Sam’s later glimpse of the single star will be for him - both of them are given an insight into the nature of reality (in Middle-earth at least) - there is high beauty which no Shadow can forever conquer. Yet the ‘light’ of that realisation is taken away almost instantly.

As for the Cross-roads, well, cross-roads have always been symbolic places. They are places of choice, places where decisions must be made. In a sense they aare also places ‘outside the world’ - suicides were often buried at Cross-roads, perhaps in the belief that the restless spirit would become confused by the multiple choices. However, I don’t think we can entirely dismiss the Christian symbolism of the Cross here. We have a ‘King’ whose body is broken, & on whose head is a ‘crown’ - not of thorns but of flowers. The King will come again. because, as Frodo says ‘They cannot conquer forever!’
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Old 04-20-2005, 07:56 AM   #2
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I was just thinking about the manner of the Hobbits' parting from Faramir, and how similar it was to partings from the Elves.

Certainly it is a lot different to the parting from Galadriel which is extremely elaborate. The earlier parting was almost ceremonial in tone, with gifts, song and even a communion or sacrament of sorts. Though Galadriel never makes the gesture of kissing anyone on the forehead. The parting from Faramir is simple as we might expect on the dangerous and wild edges of Mordor, yet it is also more intimate and has a touching air of finality about it. From here, there is little or no chance that the Hobbits will see another friendly face.

The departure from Rivendell is very sombre, in contrast to that from Lothlorien, yet again, it is quite different to the departure from Faramir. It is witnessed by many, and both Elrond and Bilbo make sure to offer words of wisdom and advice.

I noted how at every stopping off point the Hobbits seemed to acquire more gifts to help them on their way. Of course, many of these also help with the progress of the story, getting them out of tight spots and so on, but by the end, at Mount Doom, they have very few of these gifts left. The gifts do not burden them, it is the weight of the Ring which is the problem, whether literal or in the mind, and right at the end this is the one 'gift' which Frodo finds impossible to cast aside. He has help from all quarters both in terms of gifts and assistance, yet he throws all aside at that last moment as he cannot cast aside the Ring.
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Old 04-22-2005, 04:40 PM   #3
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I actually like this chapter simlpy because of the crossroads. Probably because it is another one of those unexpected things. You are surprised when Faramir enters the story but afterwards you think its over with surprises because it seems pretty straightforward. Frodo and Sam go through Mordor and the ring is destroyed. You also assume that things will get darker and darker. They do but before that Frodo and Sam arrive at the crossroads and they see that the King has a crown.
It is not just a crown. Its a crown of flowers.Flowers don't only symbolize happiness and good(vs. evil). They are alive opposed to many things that side with evil.The things that ally themselves with evil are often half dead or twisted. These flowers are of course neither of those things. They are also white which symbolizes purity and a new beginning. Thus it gives a message of hope to the reader. I also cherish this moment because it is the last somewhat peaceful minute that Frodo and Sam will share before going through the Morgul vale.
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Old 04-22-2005, 06:46 PM   #4
Hilde Bracegirdle
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Some very interesting thoughts here! Thanks for sharing them everyone.

Estelyn said

Quote:
Do you savour the descriptions? What feeling do you get when you read it?
Actually, this time around the following passage caught me for the first time.

Quote:
Looking out from the convert he (Sam) could see only a dun, shadowless world, fading into a featureless, colorless gloom. It felt stifling but not warm.
Isn’t this rather descriptive of Mordor itself, or rather what it represents. Without light (goodness) one cannot have shadow or contrast, and so would not truly recognize darkness as it’s opposite. The world would be only be shades of dun, or grey as we say today. Would something good be even seen in that featureless gloom that spilled out from the Unnamed land? I think perhaps it may help explain why Sauron would not think of anyone trying to destroy the Ring. He cannot see or comprehend such a selfless act.

On the other hand, this gloom does seem to effect Frodo and Sam, and again mention is made of Frodo sleeping, possibly dreaming but mentioning Gandalf once more.


Yes, Faramir appears to have little need of sleep! That does seem elven. Another section that stood out regarding Faramir was this one:

Quote:
Then he turned and without looking back he left them and went to his two guards that stood at a little distance away. They marveled to see with what speed these green clad men now moved, vanishing in the twinkling of an eye. The forest where Faramir had stood seemed empty and drear, as if a dream had passed.
Besides the fact that it is pretty impressive to have these guys melt away into the forest so quickly and quietly, it struck me as though Tolkien might have been talking a bit about the Faithful Numenoreans that Faramir seems to represent. Or perhaps he is speaking of us in this modern age looking back at heroic days gone by. Life is a bit emptier without that dream.

davem - You brought up some interesting food for thought. I had not noticed that Frodo said goodbye to Sam in the same way as Faramir. It would seem fitting for Frodo to do this before sailing west if it were indeed a Numenorean custom!

And I particularly enjoyed the all the thoughts on the crossroads and the king with his crown of flowers.

But as for Estelyn’s puzzler about the rumbling, I suspect it may have something to do with the neighbours kicking up there heels there in Minas Morgul!
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Old 04-22-2005, 09:51 PM   #5
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It's interesting how again we have the requirement of blindfolding. In Lorien Gimli had to be blindfolded and Aragorn chose to avoid conflict by taking this upon the whole of the Company. Here, Gollum must have his eyes bound, and Frodo this time tries to prove to him that there is nothing to fear by having Faramir's men do the same to Sam and himself. It seems Frodo has been taking a leaf out of Aragorn's book.

I love the description of the gathering darkness and the scenery:

Quote:
At their first halt they looked back, and they could dimly perceive the roofs of the forest they had left behind, lying like a vast dense shadow, a darker night under the dark blank sky. There seemed to be a great blackness looking slowly out of the East, eating up the faint blurs. Later the sinking moon escaped from the pursuing cloud, but it was ringed all about with a sickly yellow glare.

...

For the most part is was covered with a thick growth of gorse and whortleberry, and low tough thorns, though here and there clearings opened, the scars of ancient fires. The gorse-bushes became more frequent as they got nearer the top; very old and tall they were, gaunt and leggy below but thick above, and already putting out yellow flowers that glimmered in the gloom and gave a faint sweet scent. So tall were the spiny thickets that the hobbits could walk upright under them, passing through long dry aisles carpeted with a deep prickly mould.
Even the peace of Ithilien seems consumed by the blackness of the forest. The description in the second paragraph provides some great imagery for me personally; I find it very easy to envision.

Another passage I love:

Quote:
There, far away, beyond sad Gondor now overwhelmed in shade, the Sun was sinking, finding at last the hem of the great slow-rolling pall of cloud, and falling in an ominous fire towards the yet unsullied Sea.
This, my friends, is the perfect union of poetry and prose. If the two literary forms procreated, this would be it.

But about the excerpt itself: the Sun was originally created to check the power of Morgoth; it is like a damper on the power of evil. The Sun is veiled and is sinking along with the chances of Men's victory. The power of evil is overwhelming it. The one thing that yet seems pure, untouched, is the Sea -- which, as we all know, leads to hidden Valinor.

"They cannot conquer for ever!" Frodo says in a single line which embodies it all. Nothing is permanent, not the time of the glory of the Elves, but also not the dominance of evil.
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Old 04-23-2005, 06:51 AM   #6
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Encaitare
It's interesting how again we have the requirement of blindfolding. In Lorien Gimli had to be blindfolded and Aragorn chose to avoid conflict by taking this upon the whole of the Company. Here, Gollum must have his eyes bound, and Frodo this time tries to prove to him that there is nothing to fear by having Faramir's men do the same to Sam and himself. It seems Frodo has been taking a leaf out of Aragorn's book.
This has reminded me of something which stood out for me as odd in this chapter, and that is the way that Frodo seems to speak for Gollum, on his behalf. It is, dare I say it, almost condescending; I think what gets to me is that Gollum is standing there with them and yet Frodo speaks as though he cannot hear or understand:

Quote:
'Your guide must be blindfolded," said Faramir, 'but you and your servant Samwise I release from this, if you wish."

Gollum squealed, and squirmed, and clutched at Frodo, when they came to bind his eyes; and Frodo said: "Blindfold us all three, and cover up my eyes first, and then perhaps he will see that no harm is meant." This was done, and they were led from the cave of Henneth Annun. After they had passed the passages and stairs they felt the cool morning air, fresh and sweet, about them. Still blind they went on for some little time, up and then gently down. At last the voice of Faramir ordered them to be uncovered.
Yes, Gollum is distressed, but Frodo openly says that the reason he wishes all three of them to be blindfolded is for Gollum's own good. Surely Gollum can hear all this, and so what does it say about their relationship?
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Old 04-23-2005, 02:54 PM   #7
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Although Gollum might have heard what Frodo said his dark side of his nature was taking over again. This dark side might have made Gollum twist Frodo's words. Or he also could have decided that he would forget these words since they would only complicate the desicion of taking the hobbits to Shelob or not.
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