Bard & The Master Vs Aragorn & the House of Stewards

[littlemanpoet]

Quite, Bywaters, and a belated welcome to the Downs!

I found the Letter and quote. It's #144. Tolkien says:

The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on...

I'd quote more but that would send this thread careening into yet another discussion of that most recalcitrant of enigmas, TB. And if you don't know what those letters stand for, don't worry, you'll find out soon enough. Count on it! ::LMP ducks::

[Lalwendë]

I can agree that Denethor was certainly on his way to becoming a tyrant. It is simply circumstance which prevents him becoming a full blown tyrant - the return of Aragorn and then his own death. The death of Boromir could easily have pushed him into some kind of reign of terror, but as it was, it pushed him deep into despair and thus towards his own death.

But I do wonder what might have happened if Boromir had not died. I think again, that if he had returned either with or without the ring, then this too would have pushed Denethor into tyranny. Without the ring he would have been furious and determined to prove himself in some other way, and with it he would have caused something dire to happen.

So Denethor, whichever way the circumstances had gone, was always one step away from being a tyrant, but was he quite there yet? I think he was on the brink of it, and that it was inevitable. I like this thought as it makes his story all the more threatening; and it also makes his death more palatable of course.

Aragorn is the rightful king and heir, but the difference between him and the 'sitting tenant' is that Aragorn proves himself, and wins the support of the people. I think that while Denethor was spoiled by politics, Aragorn showd how skilful use of the same could actually be of benefit. I wonder what the result might have been had someone like Faramir been steward at the time?

[littlemanpoet]

I wonder what the result might have been had someone like Faramir been steward at the time?

The same thought occurred to me, Lalwendë, as I read your post. I was thinking that content of character makes all the difference, and that Faramir surely made a good steward during the reign of Elessar. Also, his refusal of the Ring demonstrates how he would have ruled as Steward of Minas Tirith in the dire circumstances Denethor faced.

[Boromir88]

In the film as he is dying, he tells Aragorn that he would follow him but this is'nt in the book.

Bywaters, Jackson uses different wording then Tolkien, but the main idea is still there. Boromir has accepted the fact that Aragorn is the rightful heir..."Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed."

Aragorn is the rightful king and heir, but the difference between him and the 'sitting tenant' is that Aragorn proves himself, and wins the support of the people.

Lalwende, this brings me to an important point. The Stewards took their duties very seriously. They weren't just about to hand the throne over, it took more than "lineage" to get the throne (as seen in Arvedui's claim). It took Boromir until his deathbed when he realized Aragorn had proven himself. Faramir had mentioned to Frodo that if a person should claim the throne they would have to prove themself. So why should Denethor bow to a man that hasn't proven himself, to the people of Gondor (yet)? Would he have done if he was still alive at the end? It's just a matter of a coin flip. Denethor's actions may seem like he just wants to stay in control (and he may have well been), but the Stewards were quite serious when dealing with who to hand the throne over to. I am also one to believe that no matter how powerful a Steward became he would have never been able to claim the title of "King," and have the powers of the King. Since, Pelendur's actions seemed to prevent the Stewards from ever claiming "Kingship."

Pelendur and the Council decided the throne belonged only to a male heir from Anarion's line, completely excluding Isildur's line, which would exclude Pelendur and the Stewards to follow.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Bywaters, Jackson uses different wording then Tolkien, but the main idea is still there. Boromir has accepted the fact that Aragorn is the rightful heir..."Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed."

The different wording between film and book reveal a subtle but important difference between Tolkien's and Jackson's vision. The "My Captain, My King" of the movie is quite dramatic and moving; it speaks of a good heart turned to the truth, and thus loyalty expressed. By comparison, "Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed" reveals a kind of spritual apotheosis: Tolkien's Boromir has discovered his own limitations. The loyalty to his people remains, but it has found its appropriate context. Tolkien's wording presents a moral change of heart, which is deeper; the badness, the evil, has been recognized and acknowledged, and confessed; and by this, Boromir dies well. I suppose this is an example of how LotR is consciously Catholic....

I found Formendacil's redaction (is that the right word?) of the quote to be fascinating; shows how Tolkien's themes run across his works.

[Bywaters]

I found Formendacil's redaction (is that the right word?) of the quote to be fascinating; shows how Tolkien's themes run across his works.

I've only read LotR and the Hobbit so cannot comment so broadly on how Tolkien's themes run through his work (it's only a matter of time!) but I see examples of this.

It seems that characters who fight on the side of good will end up being rewarded one way or the other. Like Aragorn being returned to the throne of Gondor and the Bard have Dale back to rebuild. Also, I suppose the same can be said for Boromir as he is granted forgiveness for what he did and his name will remain honourable.

[littlemanpoet]

It seems that characters who fight on the side of good will end up being rewarded one way or the other. - bywater

Yes, if you're willing to include a decent funeral as a reward. Consider Theodred, Boromir, Theoden, and many others who lost their lives in the War. Tolkien explodes the wild assertion that fairy story is unrealistic.