Best Fighter

[Ainaserkewen]

The best fighter certainly cannot be based on if he was defeated or not. I mean, look at Ken Jennings from Jeopardy. So just because some are undestroyable such as the King of the Dead, doesn't make them the best fighters. After all, he who is highest falls hardest. So what does that mean? People with more power, such as Gandalf, Sauron and the Witch King, have much greater weaknesses.

But if it were to come down to hand-to-hand combat, battle to the death in a sumo ring, then there are a few things to consider.

Stamina: Obviously Elves and Dwarves would last longer in a physical fight then men and wizards would. They're built for it.

Strength: What race is strongest, again, toss up between Elves and Dwarves.

Agility: Jeez, this isn't really leaving a lot of room for men is it?

So I've come to the conclusion that if they were to have an All-Middle-Earth wrestling tournament, Elves and Dwarves would probably kick bum because of how they're built and because they're so much older then men. I think that Gandalf wouldn't fare well in such a showdown if he couldn't use supernatural powers. Yes, he's a good fighter, he's lived a long time but he has the misfortune of being trapped in the body of a decaying man. Not good for a lasting opponent.

So who's the best fighter? In terms of Third Age type warriors, I'm tempted to say Aragorn only because I can see his spirit and skill beating most of the other candidates. He'd find a way...and that's very important. But then I wonder if her could take on Legolas? Or Gimli, or Elrond for that matter!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

May I throw in a balrog?

"Ai, Ai! A Balrog has come!" Elves are scared.

"Oh crap, it's Durin's Bane." Dwarves are scared.

"What is this new devilry?" Men are either scared or curious. Probably both.

"Oh crap, it's a balrog of Morgoth. I'm in trouble now." Wizard is scared.

Since they can be destroyed, I count them as mortal, even though it would probably live until the end of time with no interruptions. Wielding terror alone, a balrog is enough to scare off most. It would be enough for me, methinks. Cloaked in shadow and flame, that takes care of a few more. And you can't say that using fear and fire doesn't count as fighting, because in a fight, you use the tools given to you, and that's what a Balrog's got. With flaming sword and whip, we've just taken out nearly everybody else. Throw in powerful magic and a heck of a lot of experience and most fighters are in big trouble. And the wings. Don't forget those. Any opponents will be so busy trying to document proof that the Balrog can kill them with no trouble at all.

Fea

How many wings does it take to get to the firey center of a balrog debate? The world may never know.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Stamina: Obviously Elves and Dwarves would last longer in a physical fight then men and wizards would.

In a battle (army vs. army), stamina is very important. Battles can last for days.

But in a one-on-one duel to the death. Ha!

A one on one duel would rarely last long enough for stamina to come into play. An evenly matched duel could be over in twenty seconds. Any weapons expert would tell you that. There are so many chances and openings to win and the action moves so fast. Duels in movies last way longer than real life duels, and even movie duels aren't very long if you think about it.

Toss stamina out. Any respectable warrior would have enough stamina to do a duel.

Strength: What race is strongest, again, toss up between Elves and Dwarves.

Why would you say this? I thought that the men of Numenor were known for their size and strength. Turin was possibly the strongest being ever, and he was a man.

Agility: Jeez, this isn't really leaving a lot of room for men is it?

I'd say that it's Dwarves that would come up short on agility. And I remember a quote in the Sil that said that Turin grew to be as agile as any elf, so it's not as if elves own this category.

Elves and Dwarves would probably kick bum

Nope, I doubt it.

I think that Gandalf wouldn't fare well in such a showdown if he couldn't use supernatural powers. Yes, he's a good fighter, he's lived a long time but he has the misfortune of being trapped in the body of a decaying man. Not good for a lasting opponent.

I don't think so. First, think of how physically imposing the balrog was. Second, think about how Gandalf fought him. Did Gandalf say "I put spells on him and shot him with magic!"? No, Gandalf said "I hewed him". He fought him with a sword. Gandalf may have looked old, but he had plenty of physical ability. I seem to remember Pippin noting his strength when Gandalf lifted Faramir out of the pyre as if he weighed nothing.

then I wonder if her could take on Legolas? Or Gimli, or Elrond for that matter!

I imagine Aragorn would paste Gimli and beat down Legolas. Elrond- I wouldn't know. Aragorn's pretty awesome, but it'd really be tough to bet against big E.

[Ainaserkewen]

Toss stamina out. Any respectable warrior would have enough stamina to do a duel.

Ah, but we're not discussing normal warriors are we. My point on stamina is that I'd bet that a one on one would be that much more evenly matched. Fights are longer if no-one has the upper hand, right? I'm not a fencer, or anything like that, I would just imagine that if say two great warriors fought each other, neither would back down and both would be good enough to avoid death longer than normal people.

Why would you say this? I thought that the men of Numenor were known for their size and strength. Turin was possibly the strongest being ever, and he was a man.

Yes, you are right, and I did not take this into account. I was merely sliming the candidates list by eliminating most men. Most men, after all, have no special anything, especially if they don't have the motivation or hope.

I'd say that it's Dwarves that would come up short on agility. And I remember a quote in the Sil that said that Turin grew to be as agile as any elf, so it's not as if elves own this category.

It's hard to say if Dwarves are agile or not...I've never heard anyone say they were or weren't. But they are famed fighters so I made the assumption that they are. Turin was not a normal man, and my points, like I said, were just meant to slim the piles a little. Turin was amazing and definately a strong contender, man or no.

I don't think so. First, think of how physically imposing the balrog was. Second, think about how Gandalf fought him.

Yes, but it did kill him, and the only reason he came out of that was because of his "powers" if I may use that word.

I seem to remember Pippin noting his strength when Gandalf lifted Faramir out of the pyre as if he weighed nothing.

Compared to Pippin, definately. But in the description of Wizards it clearly states that they were old men for a reason, meaning that indeed though their hearts were strong, that their bodies were weak.

I imagine Aragorn would paste Gimli and beat down Legolas. Elrond- I wouldn't know. Aragorn's pretty awesome, but it'd really be tough to bet against big E.

It's hard to say really, for Legolas and Gimli at least because for Aragorn to summon enough of his personal strength in order to beat them, he'd have to have good motivation. That's Aragorn's strength, his hope and his heart. However, if he was simply told to try and kill Legolas for example, I think his human heart would be overpowered by Legolas's elven powers of skill and concentration.

Good post, my good Lord, I love these kind of debates. I hope you post again and point out any faults in this post.

And has anyone played the trading card game? What warrior card (or whatever they're called) is the strongest?

[lord of dor-lomin]

I hope you post again and point out any faults in this post.

What? Someone inviting me to post a second time? It must be my birthday or something.

I would just imagine that if say two great warriors fought each other, neither would back down and both would be good enough to avoid death longer than normal people.

If neither "would back down" then the fight would be very very short. Like I said before, there's so many chances to gain the upper hand in a fight with just one swing or thrust and if one guy gets the upper hand the other one had better back off quick or he's dead within two seconds.

If you get in a good blow on the other guy's leg his mobility is gone and it's easy to get him to fall down. You win pretty quick. If you get a good blow on his arm, then he's trying to match the strength and speed of your two good hands on your weapon with his one good hand on his weapon. You win pretty quick.

So it doesn't even take a mortal blow to make a fight be over quick.

Let's look at fights in general. Notice that fighting sports like boxing do certain things to lengthen the fight. They put padding on the fists of the fighters (making it harder to knock the other guy out), they make it illegal to punch in certain areas (making it easier to defend yourself), they don't let you grab your opponent or push them or kick them (limiting the ways you can gain an advantage), and finally they stop the fight every two minutes to allow the fighters to recover.

They've done an awful lot to make the fights longer, haven't they?

And yet, in most fights how long are the guys in the ring before one of them wins? Not too long.

So just imagine how short a fight would be with absolutely no rules, no padding, and no time outs. They'd be as long as a street fight. Have you ever seen two guys get mad at each other and decide to go at it? Those sort of fights usually lasts five to ten seconds.

Most men, after all, have no special anything

And dwarves and elves have a "special anything"? They're just a different race, that's all.

But they are famed fighters

Dwarves are known for being warlike, but "famed fighters"? Certainly not any more famous than men. Think of every great battle exploit by a dwarf or dwarf army and I can give you three or four great battle exploits by men.

Compared to Pippin, definately.

No, not just compared to Pip. Gandalf lifted Faramir like he was a toothpick. I know I couldn't do that, and I'm not old and decrepit at all.