LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 05 - The Window on the West

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

What autobiographical elements do we detect in Faramir? I would definitely see the author as an idealist, as davem describes Faramir, and his biography tells us that he had a strongly pessimistic strain to his character. What about the humility, the truthfulness, the connection with a high, mythological past? I think those elements are all visible in JRRT. What others do you notice?

I think Farmir certainly seems to have adopted an 'Elvish' approach to the past. He seems to desire Gondor to become not what Numenor actually [I]was[/I, but rather what Numenor should have been. He holds up the ideal of Numenor, & wishes to make it real - almost as the Elves hold up their ideal past & seek to manifest it in the world in places like Lorien & Rivendell. In other words they are seeking to make the world what they feel it ought to be.

Yet, like Tolkien himself, they believe that there is an ideal which should be striven for: 'A man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?' The strange thing is that while Tolkien himself seemed to hold this belief he also seemed to believe that it was an impossible ideal - all his characters & races fail to live up to the standards they set themselves, perhaps because they are fallen beings. Yet they never forsake the ideal. They never reach a point where they decide, 'Right, we've tried & failed, so we may as well give up now.' They 'fight the Long Defeat', but its as if they are not fighting an external enemy, but rather their own fallen natures. I wonder if this is the cause of their pessimism & lack of hope - they will not shrug their shoulders & walk away from the ideal, but keep on striving to live up to it.

If we take Sam for instance - Sam rises in the 'hierarchy' of society, not just the hierarchy of the Shire, but also within the hierarchy of the greater society of Middle-earth under the returned King. There is no 'revolution' within Middle-earth, no casting away of the old ideals, merely a continued striving to live up to them. The social structures remain but it becomes possible to rise above what one had been. Middle-earth becomes a meritocracy.

This makes me wonder about Tolkien's own life experiences & how they shaped his thinking. The old ways will not just magically re-establish themselves, they will have to be built up by struggle & sacrifice. But the old ideals will not themselves be sacrificed, they will remain like a light on the mountaintop, something to guide the struggling traveller. Novelty for its own sake, new ideaologies, will not be considered, because they are (in Middle-earth at least) not 'right'.

As I've said before, the Gondorians, & Gondorians like Faramir in particular, are not simply fighting against evil in the person of 'He whom we do not name', they are fighting for their ideals. So we seem to have a 'tension' - the ideals of the past provide them with a reason to fight (even if they are fighting a 'long defeat'), but they must face reality - the reality that the past was not itself ideal. Life is an eternal struggle for an ideal which will never be attained (not in this world) but that does not justify ceasing to struggle, still less changing the goal.

So, the more I consider it, the more Tolkien does seem like Faramir. So, my answer to Mithalwen's question:

The second point may belong elsewhere, but I have just reread the biography,I came across the extract from Tolkien's diary on Faramir's arrival, ‘I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking through the woods of Ithilien’. So who did?

would be, Tolkien didn't 'invent' Faramir - anymore than he 'invented' himself. He had something to say, experiences & realisations to communicate, & in Faramir he discovered a 'spokesman', wandering in the woods of Ithilien...

[Lathriel]

Originally posted by Davem
they are fighting for their ideals

This is a major theme of the book. They fight against evil not only because it will destroy everything they hold dear. But also because what evil stands for goes against what they believe in. The people of west believe in freedom,are against slavery,treachery etc.
If evil won it would destroy all their ideals.
This is why every character is willing to endanger themselves. They want their believes to live on and don't want them to be destroyed by Sauron. Of course Faramir is a good example of this. He stays in Ithillien, even though it is almost certain that he will be defeated,because he doesn't want evil to come any closer to the city of Gondor. The city of Gondor is very dear to him because it represents the greatness of the older days which he admires so much. Why is he so fascinated with events that happened so long ago? I think its because he admired his ancestors for what they did and accomplished. Plus, getting back to the idea of guarding you believes,his ancestors certainly did just that and were able to keep their believes safe and alive for many years.He respects them because he knows that if they hadn't fought as fiercely and unrelentlessley for their believes he would not have the freedom he has now.

Anyway I'm beginning to ramble. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien didn't 'invent' Faramir - anymore than he 'invented' himself. He had something to say, experiences & realisations to communicate, & in Faramir he discovered a 'spokesman', wandering in the woods of Ithilien...

It is entirely possible that Faramir represents something of Tolkien's own personality, and maybe he was aware of the similarities. By saying that he did not know who Faramir was or where he had come from, Tolkien may have been attempting to add an air of mystery about the origins of the character. Yet there is also much of Tolkien in other characters such as Bilbo, so it would be a mistake to think Faramir is the only one. Maybe he represents Tolkien's 'depths' while a character such as Bilbo simply shows similar behaviour - if that makes sense!

One question has occurred to me, and that is whether Faramir is the only example of a Gondorian who is like this? The other prominent Gondorians, Denethor and Boromir, we know to be different in their outlook, though in his own way, Boromir is also something of a dreamer. We do not really see enough of Imrahil to discern if he is like this, and Aragorn does not seem to pontificate on the nature of war. If Faramir is the only example of such a Gondorian then how far could it be said that his yearnings/thoughts are in any way typical?

Faramir does have an opposite force, and that is Eowyn, who is seemingly different in every way; together they make a 'whole' and complement one another perfectly, and it could be argued that Faramir and Eowyn are anima/animus figures, an argument I shall leave to greater experts on Jung .

[Mithalwen]

I would have happily had a lot more Imrahil ... but I have always felt that he and Faramir are cut from similar cloth - and there is evidence to support this (though inconveniently mainly not in this chapter) for a start Faramir and Imrahil both have an "elvish" quality

I still think that it is harsh of davem to paint Faramir as, for want of a better word, a snob for his regret that the men of Gondor have declined. One can seek equality at a high level rather than that everyone be reduced to the lowest common denominator. If you think of the descriptions of the various troops of the lords of Gondor, those of Gondor are portrayed as the "noblest" - but this includes the men at arms rather than just the knights and the prince. Yet I do not assume that necessarily that a plain soldier of Belfalas would rank higher than a lord of Lamedon say.

Belfalas seems to be a microcosm of greater Gondor as it might have been. It maybe wrong to include reference to HoME, but one of the problems of Gondor was the failure of the kings to ensure the succession. At the time prior to the War of the Ring, even the house of the stewards is on shaky ground. Boromir, for all his desire to know how long it would take to turn a Steward in to a king, has shown no inclination to do his duty on the posterity front . Meanwhile from the HoME genealogies, the line of Dol Amroth has passed on in seemingly unbroken succession, and Imrahil has four children and a grandson. Furthermore, the Princes of Dol Amroth have never made a claim on the crown of Gondor, Imrahil has the wisdom to follow the guidance of Gandalf rather than assert his own authority and he recognises Aragorn almost instinctively and without rancour - just as Faramir will do. Belfalas, by the sea, is literally and metaphorically closest to lost Numenore and the west. And this noble gondorian line resulting from the union of a numenorean and an elf is an encouraging precedent for the union of a dunedain and a much nobler elf woman at the end of the book.

Imrahil fills the void left by Denethor in his nephew's life. It is he who rescues Faramir and bears him back to Denethor with the reproach "Your son, has returned after great deeds". He is proactive while Denethor is passive/negative. It is fitting that Faramir will become prince of Ithilien ( which is in different ways a mini Numenore) to paralel Imrahil's own principality and marriages between him and Eowyn and Eomer and Lothiriel further reinforces the ties - it is virtually siblings marrying siblings.

Oh dear I fear this should be elsewhere ... but Imrahil is second only to Faramir in my book and so I risk turning in to the bunny boiler of Middle Earth (but that was Sam, last chapter wasn't it) :P

[davem]

Some random thoughts....

Sam crept out from the fern, but no one paid any attention to him, and he placed himself at the end of the rows of men, where he could see and hear all that was going on. He watched and listened intently, ready to dash to his master's aid if needed. ..

Frodo's tone was proud, whatever he felt, and Sam approved of it; but it did not appease Faramir. Sam had been getting more and more impatient and angry at this conversation. These last words were more than he could bear, and bursting into the middle of the ring, he strode up to his master's side....

He planted himself squarely in front of Faramir, his hands on his hips, and a look on his face as if he was addressing a young hobbit who had offered him what he called 'sauce' when questioned about visits to the orchard.

In fact the ‘tone’ of both Sam & Frodo is somewhat ‘proud’, but for different reasons. One can perhaps see the power of the Ring growing on Frodo. His tone is is proud in spite of his position. He (& the fate of Middle-earth itself let’s not forget) are in great danger here, but Frodo is no longer the humble hobbit we first met. He has already dominated Gollum, using the threat of the Ring to cow him. Now he stands before the Captain of armed warriors, defiantly attempting to put him in his place.

‘’Yet those who claim to oppose the Enemy would do well not to hinder it."

Frodo is speaking to a man who has repeatedly laid his life on the line, & Frodo has just witnessed an example of this, yet still he can tell Faramir that he ‘would do well’ not to hinder him. This is a threat, & it is made by Frodo Baggins! Faramir’s response is entirely understandable, if a bit callous to our ears, after having followed Frodo’s long struggles:

"So!" he said. 'You bid me mind my own affairs, and get me back home, and let you be”.

We shouldn’t forget that Frodo is a trespasser in Ithilien, during wartime.

But Frodo’s display of ‘pride’ is not the same as Sam’s. Sam stands up in defence of Frodo, willing to risk his safety in defence of his master, & one feels he is motivated more by frustration & desperation than by hubris.

Yet Frodo’s manifestation of pride is in the end replaced by something else - hopelessness & despair:

"Will you not put aside your doubt of me and let me go? I am weary, and full of grief, and afraid. But I have a deed to do, or attempt, before I too am slain. And the more need of haste, if we two halflings are all that remain of our fellowship.
'Go back, Faramir, valiant Captain of Gondor, and defend your city while you may, and let me go where my doom takes me."

This volte face is almost as extreme as the one we have witnessed in Smeagol/Gollum, & it clearly shows that Frodo’s personality is being slowly broken down by the Ring itself - he is falling apart, wavering between extremes, highs & lows...

Frodo had felt himself trembling as the first shock of fear passed. Now a great weariness came down on him like a cloud. He could dissemble and resist no longer.
"I was going to find a way into Mordor," he said faintly. "I was going to Gorgoroth. I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there."

Thus Frodo, who we see in this chapter running the gamut of emotions from pride, through humility:

They were led then to seats beside Faramir: barrels covered with pelts and high enough above the benches of the Men for their convenience. Before they ate, Faramir and all his men turned and faced west in a moment of silence. Faramir signed to Frodo and Sam that they should do likewise.
"So we always do," he said, as they sat down: 'we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be. Have you no such custom at meat?"
'No," said Frodo, feeling strangely rustic and untutored. "But if we are guests, we bow to our host, and after we have eaten we rise and thank him."
"That we do also," said Faramir.

to hopelessness. He is humbled by greatness - by being exposed to a higher culture - as Merry will say to Pippin later, at least he now knows & can worship greater things than the Shire.

But what of Sam? In what is almost an ‘echo’ of Gimli’s confrontation with Eomer over Galadriel, Sam also comes to the Lady’s defence - but here the characters & situation are different, & Sam’s ‘teaching’ is more polite..

"The Lady of Lorien! Galadriel!" cried Sam. 'You should see her, indeed you should, sir. I am only a hobbit, and gardening's my job at home, sir, if you understand me, and I'm not much good at poetry--not at making it: a bit of a comic rhyme, perhaps, now and again, you know, but not real poetry--so I can't tell you what I mean. It ought to be sung. You'd have to get Strider, Aragorn that is, or old Mr. Bilbo, for that. But I wish I could make a song about her. Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di'monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime. But that's a lot o' nonsense, and all wide of my mark."

"Then she must be lovely indeed," said Faramir. 'Perilously fair."
"I don't know about perilous," said Sam. "It strikes me that folk takes their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it. But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she's so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame.

Sam has learned a lesson, & sets about teaching it to Faramir! Sam has experienced the perilous ‘reality’ of the OtherWorld, & realised that that peril is within the traveller, not within the Other World. Which makes me wonder about his later resistance to the Ring ....

[Mithalwen]

These are nice reminders of some wonderful exchanges - I think that Sam and Faramir are two of Tolkien's most rounded, complex and developed characters (even though Faramir's development was at one remove ) And Sam lecturing Faramir is such a vivid image - you can just see it happening as you read. Despite the disparity in rank, their's are perhaps the most free and frank exchange of opinions in the whole shebang.

[Lalwendë]

Sam is one character who I cannot imagine being too afraid to challenge anyone. He questions Aragorn in the Prancing Pony, listens in to both the Council of Elrond and to Gandalf at Bag End, and remains suspicious of Gollum despite what Frodo tells him. He is a good example of the robust kind of character who is never afraid to speak his or her mind no matter what the situation may be, and pays no heed to rank or social status. I have to like Sam for this characteristic, though it has to be said that he is a benevolent example; in real life many such plain speaking characters can be, shall we say, 'difficult'?