No Living Man

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ironic indeed, Crispy. You've made me laugh. But I like the line of thought that Keeper has shown: by the hand of a hobbit did the Wikkie fall. By the combined hands of a hobbit and a woman did he actually "die" (sort of... you know. )

So, like we've been discussing, Glorfindel's prophecy

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

is kind of... loopholed. Very open to changes. Example: what would have happened if a crow (they like shiny things) had swiped Merry's sword and, finding it too heavy, dropped it as it was flying over the Witchking's head? Not by the hand of man... it's by the claw of a bird, that the Witchking would be stabbed. Entertaining notion, yes?

And at this point, we aren't really worried about pure and simple death, because as we've been shown, bad guys never seem to actually die. But if Glorfi's prophecy was so open to interpretation, wouldn't there be a chance for the Dead Army to swarm him like they did to that poor innocent Oliphaunt in the movies?

Fea

PS: yes, I am dogging the Dead Army. It's my thread and I can.

[Aiwendil]

Feanor of the Peredhil wrote:

is kind of... loopholed. Very open to changes. Example: what would have happened if a crow (they like shiny things) had swiped Merry's sword and, finding it too heavy, dropped it as it was flying over the Witchking's head? Not by the hand of man... it's by the claw of a bird, that the Witchking would be stabbed. Entertaining notion, yes?

I must say that this line of inquiry seems pointless to me. Glorfindel made a statement about what would happen, not what could happen. In the event, that statement turned out to be true. I don't understand what a "loophole" is in the context of such a statement, nor why he would want to avoid them.

The Saucepan Man wrote:

I see it as quite possible that Glorfindel's "prophecy" came to the Witch-King's attention and that he misinterpreted it as a condition rather than an instance of foresight.

Actually, once the prophecy has been made, presuming that everyone agrees it is true, it seems to me that there is no difference between condition and foresight. If Glorfindel has made the prophecy, then the Witch-king knows that he will not be killed by a living man. The reason people get confused by this is, I think, that to state it that way is to reverse the causality. Properly, one might say that if the Witch-king was killed by a living man, Glorfindel would not have made the prophecy.

The confusion that so often surrounds this prophecy is, I think, the same as the confusion that surrounds the issue of the "counterfactual" in philosophy of meaning and philosophy of science. It is my opinion that you get into trouble anytime you closely consider a statement of the form "if X had happened then Y" when in fact X did not happen.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally stated by Aiwendil

I don't understand what a "loophole" is in the context of such a statement, nor why he would want to avoid them.

I'm not saying that Glorfindel should avoid loopholes, but that the stating of the prophecy leaves room for several possibilities. Not that he should or shouldn't have spoken exactly as he did, simply that he did, and that's that. Once it's decided whether or not the prophecy can be taken differently than is commonly accepted, we can continue on to discuss just what *could* have happened.

I must say that this line of inquiry seems pointless to me.

And is there point to spending years arguing about pointy Elf ears and Balrog wings? Debate is simply "what if", and my debate is saying "Well, what if the prophecy could have been taken differently? Could the story line have changed?" No point, as you would have it, simply intellectual debate on random possibilities based on the text.

Fea

[drigel]

Perhaps Glorfindels observation was already stated to the Witchking by Sauron a thousand years earlier.

[the phantom]

I've got a little something to toss on the fire.

I don't have my books, so someone else needs to look up the exact quote, but I remember in LOTR Appendix A it mentioned that TWK was terrified of Boromir I. How do we explain that?

[Firefoot]

Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father.

It sounds to me like the WK feared Boromir not as a threat directly to himself, but as a threat to the forces of Mordor in general. After all, what's a leader without troops to command? The WK probably feared Boromir as a leader and captain of men, not as a threat to bodily harm to himself.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Actually, once the prophecy has been made, presuming that everyone agrees it is true, it seems to me that there is no difference between condition and foresight. If Glorfindel has made the prophecy, then the Witch-king knows that he will not be killed by a living man.

No practical difference perhaps, but a distinction should nevertheless be made. Assuming that the Witch-king learned of Glorfindel's words, it appears from his words to Eowyn that he misinterpreted them to mean that he could not be killed by any man, whereas in fact they signified that he would not be killed by any man.

As matters turned out, the practical effects were the same. But it is conceivable that his mistaken interpretation of the words caused him to act differently than had he interpreted them correctly. In seeing them as a statement on his invunerability, he might have intepreted the word "man" liberally to denote any member of the "humanoid" races, prompting him into more reckless behaviour on the battlefield whereas, had he understood that they were a prophecy, he might perhaps have interpreted the word more rigidly (since a prophecy, by its very nature, arises from a very specific set of circumstances).

The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt.

Quite possibly, this marks a sudden realisation on the Witch-king's part of his erroneous intepretation of Glorfindel's words.