Luthien: Maia or Elf.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Okay, the main point is taken, Thingol is certainly a top-notch elf.

However, I have to disagree with your assessment of the capabilities of the later-age Elves. As you have it, Elrond should not be nearly as potent as Galadriel, coming as he does three more generations down the line, but at the end of the Third Age he seems to be pretty much on par with her, if not exactly so.

Furthermore, I still stand by my assertation that Gil-galad was as great a king or greater than his First Age predecessors. (Certainly he had a MUCH longer and more successful reign). In addition, I would say that the kingdom of Eregion was every bit as successful and grand as Hithlum, Himring, Nargothrond (although not Gondolin). Certainly, the craft of the Elves was amazing. With the exception of Gondolin, I would say that the craft of the Elves SUPERCEDED that of the First Age Elves (although not the Valinorean pre-trees craft).

In addition, by trotting out Galadriel as evidence of greater strength, you are somewhat undermining your theory, as Galadriel is two generations down from Finwe (and both Finwe and her father had large families), and should not thus be listed (by Tolkien in his later life) as perhaps as great an elf as Feanor, if in totally different ways.

Actually I would rank Elrond behind Galadriel in inherent power..... although he is my favourite character his power is more in wisdom than in this inherent power - "the power that is in him" as Gandalf says of Glorfindel - which is enough to drive all the Nazgul in to the Bruinen and is linked by Gandalf to his time in Valinor.

I certainly don't think that Eregion was better than Gondolin... or Gil Galad equal to Fingolfin. but certainly you are not obliged to agree with me.
The point about the larger families in the early elves is that they are at the height of their powers and have the desire, strength and confidence for them - tbe main reason Finwe remarried was for this purpose.

And re Galadriel - the argument you pin on me is, once again not the one I was making.

[HerenIstarion]

You both have good points and produce coherent chain of argument (and brought me much pleasure in reading it), but I can't help having a feeling you discuss a little without 'common point of compromise'. And can't help feeling there is not that much importance to the question at all

What is the scale you measure the 'power' against? Or what is 'power'?

According to dictionary:

Power: a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect

there is a wagonful of definitions to follow, we'll deal with them (not all, of course) later but for now, this will suffice. It seems to me, than, that in this respect, Elrond and Galadriel (and Celembrimbor and Samwise Gamgee's uncle Andy who was 'good with ropes'), are all equals. That is, if I seek exact effect, and have the means of producing it at my disposal, and produce it in an exact manner and mode I was after in my original design, my 'power' is as great as it may ever be with anyone else. So Gollum in his climbing ability is as 'powerful' as Feanor was in smithying etc.

The comparison may be made only if people are engaged in the same field. Say, it may be said that Feanor was greater smith than some Hobbiton smith was, and that also with a proviso - in case we know for sure that Feanor produced horse-shoes as well as palantiri, and shoes of his were objectively better than shoes produced by Hobbitn smith (given the same quality ore). But this does not work in case of kingdoms and efficacy of rulers (given that rulers all follow the same moral law) - for one (and that's enough), there are external factors which are absent in smithying.

Power 2 a : possession of control, authority, or influence over others

In this respect, those who possess such a control, or produce means of such a control, are the most powerful. But it seems a bit lop-sided a statistic. What would one do - count how much subjects Galadriel had, and if it is found that Lorien population exceeded that of Rivendell, she were more powerful, but if vice versa, Elrond was the tough guy than? Obviously, math will not help in this matter and mode of comparison. In this case, revolts (at a stretch) may serve as scale measure - i.e. if there were revolutions (given, again, same causing factors and same development pattern) of exact strength and the mode of how each particular ruler dealt with them would be the scale. But we have no revolutions in elven kingdoms save Nargothrond, and that was also rather coup d'etat brought about by external causes than revolution proper

Power 3 a : physical might b : mental or moral efficacy

Physical might is self explicable. (But who ever have seen Galadriel and Elrond kickboxing?)

For mental or moral efficacy, there is no scale of measure save direct encounter/duel either. As there were no exams or global tests for elven kings/queens in the sense 3b of the word 'power', I may now proceed to draw the conclusion:

There is hardly any, or no means whatsoever, of the 'power' test for elven lords, and, since there is also no point in such a comparison, the matter happily moves on to the sphere of personal tastes/likings/opinions

I would suggest than to substitute the word 'authority' for the word power, and define 'authority' as influence not over others, but over each other that elf lords exhibited. But in this case we also can not compare the authority of Elrond and Galadriel - being part of the council (i.e equals in status) they may have manifested their influence in turns. (We lack data - as it is, no minutes or proceedings of council sessions were preserved) For all we know, in a one event (Gandalf for President!), Galadriel lost rather than took over. Supposedly, to Elrond among others. But she may have won in other events. The only instance of saying 'who's the strongest' would have been that exact data of how much projects lobbied, say, by Elrond and impeded by Galadriel were approved of by the council on each contestants 'influence power' only (lacking other data, without other objective reasons, save for Elrond saying 'yes' and Galadriel saying 'no', or vice versa)

(Besides, some intstances of giving in to others may be a sign of not less, but of more 'power')

The most funny of all this post of mine is that such a substitution is also pointless. It would have been if we were comparing rivals, not allies. Say, Gandalf and Saruman, but since Elrond and Galadriel pursued same goal, exact amount of authority exhibited by each in the process of achieving it is of no importance

cheers

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Hear, hear!

Elfhood entrance examination announcement!

Elven power global test! School-leaving certificate! To be passed by all elves at the age of fifty!

• Test 1 (Physical prowess) Beat up the balrog two times out of three. (test is taken over two years, as there are many contestants and only one balrog (for equality's sake), and balrog has to be healed and rested before the new contestant comes to beat poor thing up)

• Test 2 (Mental efficacy) Outstare Sauron in the palantir and/or outsing him in an a cappella mode (no intstuments allowed)

• Test 3 (Creativeness) A) Architecture - Build underground mansions (dwarves may be employed, but should be paid for by the contestant) B) Applied arts - B.1 Create adornments out of precious metals (i.e. rings, necklaces, etc, special bonus if adornmnents have additional options of increasing mental efficacy, B.2 model sculptural images of plants B.3 Musical taste - create mental images with harps

• Test 4 (Applied technologies) - A) Global commubications - Create TV/satellite sets (artistic performance/aesthetics bring additional points - commission prefers spherical TV sets) B) Power engineering - create self-sufficient lighting units (i.e. silmarills, phials etc)

• Test 5 (Agriculture) - grow crops and flax

• Test 6 (Housewivery) - bake buns out of the crops you grew, weave coats and mats out of the flax, create carnival costumes out of natural materials (i.e. wolve hides, bat skins, own hair etc)

• Test 7 (Martial arts) - manage to stick the sword into the foot of Morgoth. The timetable similar to that of test 1

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[Formendacil]

Excellent points all, Heren_Istarion, but I feel it necessary to point out that I wasn't necessarily comparing Galadriel and, or saying that Elrond was the greater. Galadriel is, after all, accorded near-Feanor status near the end of Tolkien's life, and is certainly Elrond' peer. On the flip side, Elrond has his own areas of talent that seem to eclipse Galadriel: healing and lore in particular (as well as Maiar blood).

What I was arguing was not so much that Elrond was the equal of Galadriel, but that the later Elves were the equals of the earlier Elves (in middle-earth. Valinor fits only unfairly into the equation). As I was saying, there were exceptions to this rule (Gondolin is quite clearly the greatest Elven kingdom ever in middle-earth, and Doriath's possession of a Maia queen is unfair for defensive comparisoms), but in general, I think that the average 2nd/3rd Age Elf was pretty much the equal of the 1st Age Elf, that the inherent power in each Elf was NOT diminished over the generations, although perhaps the amount of progeny did.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What I was arguing was not so much that Elrond was the equal of Galadriel, but that the later Elves were the equals of the earlier Elves (in middle-earth. Valinor fits only unfairly into the equation). As I was saying, there were exceptions to this rule (Gondolin is quite clearly the greatest Elven kingdom ever in middle-earth, and Doriath's possession of a Maia queen is unfair for defensive comparisoms), but in general, I think that the average 2nd/3rd Age Elf was pretty much the equal of the 1st Age Elf, that the inherent power in each Elf was NOT diminished over the generations, although perhaps the amount of progeny did.

In seeking out a quote of Tolkien's for another thread I came across this. Its from Verlyn Flieger's book A Question of Time:

"In Elvish sentiment the 'future' was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though inevitably it lay 'ahead', as of one on a journey, "looking forward" did not implyanticipation of delight. "I look forward to seeing you again" did not mean or imply "I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/& or very likely, I am pleased". It meant simply "I expect to see you againwith the certainty of foresight(in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dislike, 'foreboding'" Their position , as of latter day sentiment was of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual position ever looking backwards".

Flieger interprets -

"Tolkien's Elves, who, facing toward their past, are 'backed' into the future by those who follow. Men are 'proceeding' into the future, while Elves are 'receeding' into it."

Now, while this doesn't speak to any 'objective facts' about the power of Second/Third Age Elves in Middle earth as opposed to their First Age counterparts, it does speak to their own feelings about & assessment of themselves. Clearly the Elves of later Ages felt that they were 'lesser' beings, being 'driven' forward in time, away from the time& place of their true greatness.

Certainly the Elves of the Third Age look back with regret to the earlier ages, but then that was always a tendency of Elves almost from the beginning. The past was always better for them, change is always & inevitably change for the worse. Even at the end of the Third Age when they are leaving Middle earth they speak not so much of going to the West as of going back. They are stepping out of Men's way, so that they no longer hold them back, but also so that they themselves are no longer pushed forward (in Time) & away from not only where they desire to be (the 'perfect', if idealised, past), but away also from what they had been.

As I said, this doesn't mean that the Elves of the later Ages were lesser beings than their ancestors, but it does imply that they believed they were. I think this was inevitable, given their tendency to seek to 'preserve' (or 'embalm' to use Tolkien's term) as much of what they had, & to recreate as much as they could of what they had lost. So, even if Gil-Galad was as great as some of his predecessors, I doubt very much he would have believed it himself.

So, would this 'self-doubt', this sense of their being 'lesser children of greater sires' which seems to be the mindset of the Elves of LotR, have affected them in any way? Would it have lead them to doubt themselves to such an extent that they didn't actually achieve what they could have done - did it have the effect of 'depressing' their will & strength, their innate 'power'? Certainly on my first reading of LotR I did wonder why these 'superbeings' didn't get more involved. Maybe for all their 'equality' in power (if they were equal) with their ancestors they were less powerful in practical terms, because they just didn't believe in themselves...