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Old 03-23-2005, 07:29 PM   #1
Lolidir
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Sting

Now that you point this out. The first thing that comes to my mind is that the uruk-hai that fought at Helm's Deep were from Saruman, and the ones from Gondor were mostly if not entirely from Mordor, made by Sauron (undoubtedly the more evil of the two). So in that respect the races of uruk-hai were different. Like that of the world today. The way they were made, or brought about and what was put into them. Bigger and stronger, meaner - possibly but the book doesnt really say.

Now as for which army was stronger and what not, I think is a bit of an unfair statement to make. You had the Rohirrim who all had horses, basically, and from there they had the long spears and it is much harder to kill a man on a horse with a spear than a man with a sword right in front of you.

As for fighting in dire need. In Rohan they had Aragorn, and he sparked that light of hope, if you can recall in the movie when they are in the armory and Aragorn and Legolas have the "heated discussion" and in which Legolas see that a false hope is better than no hope. Even Theoden recognizes that he didnt lead Rohan to victory but it was Aragorn. In Gondor there was Gandalf, but he was no Aragorn. The people had lived to long in fear and no one to lead them. At least in Rohan there was Eomer. The people in Gondor looked out the window and saw the vast number of uruk-hai and other enemies and lost all hope. No matter what you say Gandalf was no king, he was no Aragorn. Even if he did Gondor still didnt have Denethor behind it, and too have someone come in and try to do good without the help of the ruler just doesnt work as well as if you have both working for good as Aragor and Theoden did.
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:38 PM   #2
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1420!

I think you could compare the two armies, it may be a little uneven, with Rohan mainly being Cavalry, and Gondor mainly being heavy infantry. I would argue that Imrahil's Knights of Dol Amroth were possibly the best Cavalry unit in LOTR (aren't afraid of the Nazgul), but since they didn't appear in the movie it doesn't make a difference...

Since their fighting styles are also different, I think it's going to come down to leadership, and depending upon the time, is who had the better leadership...Starting in TTT the advantage goes to Rohan, they have Theoden, Theodred, Eomer, and Gamling...Gondor has Denethor and Faramir (and Faramir's little buddy that follows him around). Darn...I wish Imrahil was in the movie...But once the Ring is destroyed, I'll give the advantage to Gondor..Now they have the newly acquired Aragorn, and Rohan lost their good leaders (excluding Eomer).

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No matter what you say Gandalf was no king, he was no Aragorn. even if he did Gondor still didnt have Denethor behind it all, and too have someone come in and try to do good without the help of the ruler just doesnt work as well
Gandalf was as much as a capable leader as Aragorn, if not better. Remember it's Gandalf's duty to unite the people of middle-earth and aid them in combatting Sauron...
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So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defense of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory.
I think this holds true even within the movies context, Denethor is even worse than he is in the book, and Gandalf does all the commanding. You see men following him, listening to him, and giving pep talks.
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Old 03-23-2005, 08:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lolidir
In Gondor there was Gandalf, but he was no Aragorn. The people had lived to long in fear and no one to lead them. No matter what you say Gandalf was no king, he was no Aragorn. Even if he did Gondor still didnt have Denethor behind it, and too have someone come in and try to do good without the help of the ruler just doesnt work as well as if you have both working for good as Aragor and Theoden did.
i forgot about Gandalf uniting the peoples of ME. My point was that the people didnt have a leader that they knew, and were really comfortable with. If Aragorn had arrived before the battle and became king and established an ansolute power and given the people a sence of that leadersip, they might have been more willing to fight. Even though Gandalf was a famous wizard (Istari) and everyone knew who he was, they didnt know him. He came in, out of no where and tried to take over. While he was better than Denethor, i just dont think that they would have just left Denethor and followed Gandalf, especially when he was so openly opposing Gandalf.


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Originally Posted by Boromir88
Gandalf was as much as a capable leader as Aragorn, if not better.
This is true, but every leader has to have time to gain the trust and respect of the followers. If someone came into your work, school, or what ever and just took over, they might be the better leader, but only time will let you see that. And as we know time was not on Gondor's side.
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Old 03-23-2005, 08:24 PM   #4
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This is true, but every leader has to have time to gain the trust and respect of the followers. If someone came into your work, school, or what ever and just took over, they might be the better leader, but only time will let you see that. And as we know time was not on Gondor's side.
Good point

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If Aragorn had arrived before the battle and became king and established an ansolute power and given the people a sence of that leadersip, they might have been more willing to fight. Even though Gandalf was a famous wizard (Istari) and everyone knew who he was, they didnt know him. He came in, out of no where and tried to take over.
The thing I don't understand, and perhaps you could explain a little better, is how would the Gondorians accept Aragorn and not Gandalf? Gandalf did arrive out of nowhere, and perhaps they didn't quite trust him. But how would it be different if Aragorn arrived out of nowhere? He wasn't well known in Gondor either. Also, certainly Denethor wouldn't allow Aragorn to barge in and claim the throne without starting resistance. And considering that they are still willing to listen to him when he says "burn my son and me," I would think Aragorn would have a tough time.
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Old 03-23-2005, 08:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Boromir88
But how would it be different if Aragorn arrived out of nowhere? He wasn't well known in Gondor either.
This is a good point. I guess my reasoning for this is the fact that Aragorn was the rightful King and ruler of Gondor, as where Gandalf wasn't. He was just someone who had power and took control. Aragorn would have had to have been listened to, in some sort of way for he was the king. I am thinking that maybe it would encourage the people to see their bad leader overthrown by the rightful good one.

But then again the people didn't know him any better, if not less than Gandalf. And if you wanted to you could bring in the fact that every one reacts differently to a different situation. But the best thing I can think of is today's military. The military today is mostly Bush supporters. (I dont mean to offend any one on their political parties it's just an example) They fight because they love their country and they love their leader. I am sure that in those times it was the same thing. The people may have been forced to fight, but they would fight better for a leader they loved and respected.
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Old 03-24-2005, 08:19 AM   #6
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This is a good point. I guess my reasoning for this is the fact that Aragorn was the rightful King and ruler of Gondor, as where Gandalf wasn't.
Very true, and within the movies I think this works. Denethor is portrayed a lot worse and it seems like nobody cares that Gandalf smacks around the Steward, maybe they were just tired of the man...

An important point though that has been discussed before, as seen in Arvedui's claim and Aragorn's decisions, that it takes more than "right" to become King. One must have the support of the people, in which it seemed Aragorn did. The movies I think show this a little differently, that they were just tired of Denethor and wanted the true King. Where the books deal with it in a bit different way, Aragorn must prove himself to the people, (being victorious at the Morannon) to get the support of Gondor.
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:09 PM   #7
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White Tree

You are right when you say that the way that things are portrayed is different between the books and movie.

Actually i think its covered pretty nicely in Aragorn's decisions from what I read. In the movie they leave out that whole part with Imrahil and the House of Healing. I think that part really helped gain the respect and trust of the people. Through that whole time between the battle at Pelennor Fields and the time when they march on the Black Gate Aragorn refuses to enter the city as the king. He is recognized as the Captain of the Dunedain of Arnor for the time being and remains in a tent outside the city. So when they (Aragorn, Gandalf, Imrahil, Eomer) lead the armies against the Black Gate and they are victorious, and he is finally revealed to them as Aragorn, the rightful king, they realize that this guy that they trusted in battle, as a result of his skill, is going to be their king. So by the time he actually take the thrown the people know that he can be a leader because of how he lead them to victory over Sauron, and then they are more willing to accept him.

I asked and we can continue to compare this to the books as long as it doesnt turn into just a book discussion.
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Old 05-06-2005, 03:16 PM   #8
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White Tree

It did seem that Rohan's army was vastly superior in size and skill than that of Gondor...Maybe PJ made it that way to emphasize that the power and grandeur of Gondor had slipped from what it had been.
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