gandalf as a maia

[dwarfguard]

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by dwarfguard

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

Not quite. We're not talking about Dragon Ball Z. "Power levels" are a pretty complicated thing in Tolkien's work. Galadriel would not have had anything to fear from Saruman personally, I daresay, just as Gandalf did not. "Stronger than any elf" may not be entirely accurate, either, as Tolkien said that some Elves were elevated to such a degree of mightiness as to approach the spiritual puissance of the Maiar. I believe this was written in reference to Glorfindel, and could obviously also apply to those considered "greater" than he.

[Boromir88]

If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog....

[drigel]

If you look at my posts, I am a Galadriel defender myself. And I do love a good debate, so I will be the devils advocate on this one, just because I am still interested. As long as its based on good natured, canon adhering ideas, I do like to throw it around some. Makes me think and learn

does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?

She was as wise as she was a great elf. IMO, (kind of aggreeing with DGuard) if she did anything, she confided to him -in private communication (either verbally or non-verbally). Im sure Gandalf did as well.

she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself

Pride and the desire to rule says a lot about her strength of spirit, yes. Her, and about 35,000 other Noldor defied the Valar...... so that says what about her personal physical attributes??

Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway.

ummm not sure what the point is here. Too many contradictions. I would say here that disdain is different than "calling him out" and identifying him as Sauron Gauthar. She is neither omnipresent nor is she omnipotent.

She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power

LOVE that. Awsome. Except for the unlimited part..

If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia.

She is accounted, of all the Eldar, one of the most powerfull, noble and wise. If it was an athletic contest, the smart money would be on G. But, she is an elf, not a comic book hero. She spent the majoritiy of her time in ME ruling, not personally fighting. As for the Maia deal, I would think that Saruman might be hampered due to the fact that he had to assume the physical embodiment that the Istari were confined to, but cmon dude - GvsS is to me like GvsBalrog. I would hope for the best, but my heart would tell me that she would not be long for this world. All a matter of opinion I guess....

[dwarfguard]

it might be because i was never much of an galadriel person, but i have to stick with what i said before.Theres no way she would stand a chance against saruman.Those staffs arent just for looks.I'm sure it came in handy for gandalf against that balrog.Although there is debate about elven "magic", i never seen her as much of a warrior, more of an mental warrior, so to speak, very strong willed.Oh yeah, whatever dragonball z is, i assure you it has nothing to do with it.I got that part about saruman being the most poweful from the books.Maybe someone known as a warrior like glorfindel or feanor could defeat him.

[Boromir88]

I'm sure it came in handy for gandalf against that balrog.Although there is debate about elven "magic", i never seen her as much of a warrior

She (with some help from Saruman) threw Sauron's butt out of Dol Guldur. She is also able to sustain Lorien with the power from her ring. And being a Noldor elf who has seen the two trees I would say she is quite a warrior if needed to be one.

[dwarfguard]

Actually sauron retreated to mordor once he knew they were on to him...But i guess ill give up my resistance since majority seems to be against me.But saruman would still defeat galadriel.thats just my opinion.I dont know what you guys think she could pull out of her a** to beat him, but more power to her.

[the phantom]

If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog...

Being wise and powerful is not the same thing as being very physically strong, very quick and agile, and extremely skillful with a weapon and experienced in hand to hand combat. Glorfindel is a warrior and I would expect him to have much more success in a physical battle than Galadriel.

She (with some help from Saruman) threw Sauron's butt out of Dol Guldur.

With her bare hands?

She is also able to sustain Lorien with the power from her ring

...which has nothing to do with how well she can swing a sword.

And being a Noldor elf who has seen the two trees

Viewing trees does not count as battle experience.

I would say she is quite a warrior if needed to be one.

I imagine she would do decent if she had to, but compete with Glorfindel or other such warriors? No.

[dwarfguard]

Ah, a partner in crime! as i said before, I see her as a wise spiritual elf, not a warrior.What would she do, stare him to death?But really, i believe she would put up a good fight.Also, had saruman not seen the two trees?Not that it matters for combat.

[Formendacil]

Just to get back to the original topic of the thread, it says that the Istari came to Middle-earth in the FORM of men, meaning tha physically speaking, their bodies were those of Men.

So, to those who knew no better, it was obvious to assume that they were men. Of course, once it was apparent that they had longer life than most, it would be obvious that they were more than ordinary men (wizards, if I may use the word). But only those who knew from whence they came (namely the Elves), would guess that that power came from being Maiar. They would assume that they were just very learned men (and I believe that Tolkien says something similar somewhere).

Now, most of the important Elves would likely know that the Istari arrived from the West, and the nature of getting back from Valinor being what it was, I think they would guess that the Istari were probably Maiar, but they really wouldn't have any way of knowing for sure unless they told, which it appears that they didn't.

A thought that came to me though is that in one of the ideas concerning the origin of the elessar, Gandalf brings it back from Aman, and gives it to Galadriel. In doing so, he practically tells her that he was from Valinor (if not that he was a Maia). Although this is hardly Tolkien's last word on the subject, perhaps it is indicative that it was known by the wise in Middle-earth that the Istari were Valinorean in origin.

[Anguirel]

I did not mean to say that Galadriel could kill Saruman, or would. In Britain, "to cut dead" means to disparage, to do down, to ignore, to insult-which Galadriel did do, to both Saruman and Annatar. I never intended to open a can of worms about Galadriel's physical prowess, only about her pride and confidence in herself and her status.

[HerenIstarion]

I see no problem in supposition that literally nobody knew who or what Gandalf (and others) were. Inscrutable are the ways... For all elves knew, there may have been a lot of beings Eru installed in the created world they never heard about. Exactly the ground of Eregion's Noldor mistake - taking Annatar without examination of what might he be a travers his fair appearance. And noble ground at that - take the good your Lord gives you without judging it.

In this light, the initial question maybe answered as 'no, nobody in the fellowship, as well as outside it, knew what Gandalf really was'

There are pro arguments a-plenty as well, though:

I do not think such a total igonrance at all probable - Gandalf is a bit free in giving his Western name and indirect hinting and slips of the tongue as well, and there, as have been said above, are people around having enough data to add up 2 and 2 and get 4 at the end of equation. Cf, per isntance:

For I also am a steward. Did you not know?

Denethor is a scholar as well as a politician. The beads may be easily stringed - the rightful stewards of created things, whom the king of is Eru, are Valar. But Gandalf, if he were a Vala, would not find it difficult to get rid of Sauron. The search goes a step lower - Gandalf is a Maia. This intercourse alone is enough to deduct what Gandalf really is. But the tone of the whole sentence implies that Denethor is supposed to know, or have known the fact, and Gandalf merely reminds, expecting him to recall whom he is talking to.

Aragorn may have known:

'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said Aragorn at last, 'that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads.'

(But that citation itself may be viewed as containing the weak point - Aragorn compares Gandalf not to Sauron (whom he is equal of in status), but to his minions, probably on assumption they are his opposites, not Sauron himself)

Yet the initial question (fellowship's data) may be also answered thus: who cared and had appropriate sources, those knew. Cared not (supposedly) Legolas, Gimli, Pippin, Merry, Sam. The rest must have known:

1. Aragorn - on the ground of being Elrond's foster son and on the ground of being Heir of Faithful fo Numenor, and personal friend of Gandalf's
2. Boromir - on the ground of being Denethor's son and Faramir's brother. (but this one may be a dubious choice, after all, it is unclear if he cared or cared not - not being eager after knowledge, but rather fame)
3. Frodo - on the ground of his studies in Rivendell, of being the Ring-Bearer, Gandalf's personal friend, whom the latter valued more than many others, of being Bilbo's heir, who may have equally learned the truth from A. Gandalf, B. Elrond

As for validity of sources - Denethor I've explained, Elrond - may have learned the fact: A. From Gandalf himself, B From Cirdan C From Glorfindel.

***

Funnily enough, the conclusion that may be drawn from this considerable amount of assumptions and suppositions and speculations I took pains to provide you with may sound a paradox:

It does not matter who knew/knew not what Gandalf was whatsoever. The important thing was he was an exact antithesis of Evil Physically Present, the one which needed fighting against, and he had an authority (based rather on his deeds than his status) to rally the power of Good around himself to fight it. Or, in less words - 'let's go for Gandalf against Sauron, for Gandalf is brave, kind, just and loving', and not 'let's go for Gandalf for he is a maia'. It is exactly when Saruman started acquiring 'status' that his fall began.

Or, go Theoden!

cheers