LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 04 - Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aldarion Elf-Friend · 03-23-2005, 12:23 PM

Not to open a can of worms, but this chapter seems to cry out for the discussion of Tolkien and race. I don't have access to his letters, but many on this board do, so maybe some of you can shed some light on this discussion.

The simple facts of the matter are that all the "good guys" in LotR are white, and the "bad guys" are largely black/asian (those that aren't orcs, of course).

I know that the way he had ME set up the northwestern part of the continent was the closest to Valinor and therefore had the most access to elves/divine influence. The south and east (blacks/asians) were under the sway of Sauron simply by accident of their location.

This racial situation has been decried by some pundits, and contemporary fantasy is still often very anglo-centric (thought not necessarily in emulation of Tolkien)

So, any thoughts? Any illumination from the good Professor's letters on this subject? Enquiring minds want to know.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-23-2005, 02:13 PM

We have had several discussions on Tolkien and racism in the past. I used the search to find threads on the topic and came up with these, among others:

Racism in LotR?
Racism and Tolkien
Lord of the Rings labelled racist
Can the book be considered racist?
Are Tolkien books racist?

I would suggest that general thoughts on the subject be posted on one of those threads and that only those that pertain directly to this chapter be posted here.

Mithalwen · 03-23-2005, 02:54 PM

It is easy to draw these parralels but since this is not the place for full discussion, I would say that 50 years on our minds are tuned to different wavelengths - we are far more sensitive to these things now. In short, I think the discriptions here are essentially a coincidence of geography ( as he has taken care to give ithilien appropriate flora so he gives the people of the south and east appropriate characteristics) and serve to highlight how strange and exotic the swertings are to the hobbits. I see little rascism in the thoughts of Sam quothed by Lathriel. Despite the superficial differences; the similarities, the common humanity is clearly recognised.

The fact that this is a battleof Men against Men is interesting to me, because of the problems posed by the nature of orcs. I can't be scientific about this but I get the impression that Tolkien is much more frugal about killing men - they tend to flee in terror rather thanbe slaughtered wholesale like the orcs (the implication that the orcs ARE irredeemably bad) but that too is an issue for other threads I guess.

03-23-2005, 12:23 PM	#1
Aldarion Elf-Friend Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Playing in Peoria Posts: 35	Tolkien and Race Not to open a can of worms, but this chapter seems to cry out for the discussion of Tolkien and race. I don't have access to his letters, but many on this board do, so maybe some of you can shed some light on this discussion. The simple facts of the matter are that all the "good guys" in LotR are white, and the "bad guys" are largely black/asian (those that aren't orcs, of course). I know that the way he had ME set up the northwestern part of the continent was the closest to Valinor and therefore had the most access to elves/divine influence. The south and east (blacks/asians) were under the sway of Sauron simply by accident of their location. This racial situation has been decried by some pundits, and contemporary fantasy is still often very anglo-centric (thought not necessarily in emulation of Tolkien) So, any thoughts? Any illumination from the good Professor's letters on this subject? Enquiring minds want to know. __________________ Bado go Eru, Aldarion

03-23-2005, 02:13 PM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	We have had several discussions on Tolkien and racism in the past. I used the search to find threads on the topic and came up with these, among others: Racism in LotR? Racism and Tolkien Lord of the Rings labelled racist Can the book be considered racist? Are Tolkien books racist? I would suggest that general thoughts on the subject be posted on one of those threads and that only those that pertain directly to this chapter be posted here. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-23-2005, 02:54 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	It is easy to draw these parralels but since this is not the place for full discussion, I would say that 50 years on our minds are tuned to different wavelengths - we are far more sensitive to these things now. In short, I think the discriptions here are essentially a coincidence of geography ( as he has taken care to give ithilien appropriate flora so he gives the people of the south and east appropriate characteristics) and serve to highlight how strange and exotic the swertings are to the hobbits. I see little rascism in the thoughts of Sam quothed by Lathriel. Despite the superficial differences; the similarities, the common humanity is clearly recognised. The fact that this is a battleof Men against Men is interesting to me, because of the problems posed by the nature of orcs. I can't be scientific about this but I get the impression that Tolkien is much more frugal about killing men - they tend to flee in terror rather thanbe slaughtered wholesale like the orcs (the implication that the orcs ARE irredeemably bad) but that too is an issue for other threads I guess. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

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