A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Saruman did not manipulate him, but rather promised him rewards. And Theoden was never under Saruman's "control", not in the books. There is no exorcism in the books, but rather wise words by Gandalf.

Ah, but do you remember the wave of tiredness, the dark force of will that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli felt when they entered Rohan and began moving toward Isengard?

Saruman was capable of exerting his presence and weakening their wills ... and speeding along his orcs, probably in the same way that Gandalf did the complete opposite, strengthening the wills of men, and intimidating orcs with no more than sheer will (you saw this more when he became "White", naturally).

So, if Saruman were to bend that focus onto one man, Theoden (who he could presumably monitor using his Palantir, which is what the movie logically came up with as the tool of the "sorcery" involved) then he may very well have been applying just a bit of pressure on Theoden.

I don't think he could literally possess the mind of any man ... but weakening wills seemed to be right up his alley, and with Wormtongue giving logical explanations and manipulating events so that Theoden simply thought he was growing older and wearier ... it seems like this 'spell' (it wasn't really a spell) could have worked.

Saruman's 'menace' was a viable part of Theoden's weakness. Between that shadow of fear, and force of will, Wormtongue's meddling and bad times, Theoden was subdued.

Anyway, Grima son of Galmod was Rohirric, he was devious, manipulative and crafty from the beginning ... and Saruman knew exactly how to play him.

It wouldn't take much to see that Wormtongue had a fancy for Eowyn ... Saruman could have used that. Also, as a scrawny, weaker man growing up among tough, militaristic, athletic lads like Theodred and Eomer, Wormtongue probably was a bit of an outcast in youth, that would explain why he felt like he should turn on his own people ... it's likely Theodred and Eomer weren't especially kind to him, even in youth ... and he was getting a little payback.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

Also, as a scrawny, weaker man growing up among tough, militaristic, athletic lads like Theodred and Eomer, Wormtongue probably was a bit of an outcast in youth, that would explain why he felt like he should turn on his own people ... it's likely Theodred and Eomer weren't especially kind to him, even in youth ... and he was getting a little payback.

My thoughts exactly. I used to hate Wormtongue worse than sin, until I realised, at length, that Grima could so easily have been me. Physically weak and no warrior, very likely seeking solace in that most un-Rohirric form of entertainment, reading. Surrounded by adonises, golden haired and brawny, heroes, leaders of men, who must have sneered at this dark-haired, softly spoken fellow, and suspected him as he rose in the King's counsel, at first, one imagines, through genuine ability.

I expect his love for Eowyn was at first genuine, and had he remained true, could even have ended happily. Eowyn ends up with a man who, although he may be a great fighter, far prefers reading and scholarship; an enlightened prince and not a mere hero of battle. Heresy though this may be, you can't deny that, but for Grima's dreadful faults of character and cowardice, he and Faramir might have quite a few similarities.

Embittered and suspected by the King's tanists, Grima would have sought the company of the White Wizard. Saruman would have been sympathetic...would know everything at once...and Grima would be lost in his wise counsel.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

you can't deny that, but for Grima's dreadful faults of character and cowardice, he and Faramir might have quite a few similarities.

I think the main difference between Grima and Faramir is that the latter does not seek power, while the former seeks it to such an extent that the very process of gaining it corrupts him. Both are slightly at odds with the perceived 'norms' of their respective cultures (and in Faramir's case, family expectations), but Faramir lives on the edges of his society while Grima seeks to get right to the centre of it. Neither of these ways of being is what they should do, as both go to extremes in doing what they do, Faramir almost seeming to want to escape, while Grima craves acceptance. Both are introverts, but while Faramir is damaged by his need to retreat, Grima is damaged by his need to have power, to be an infiltrator of the highest circle of his society.

Faramir of course gets his chance for 'redemption' of sorts by rejecting the ring, but Grima refuses to be redeemed in any way. Faramir does not suffer from an excess of pride, but Grima does, and it is this which brings him so low, literally, by the end of his life.

[Anguirel]

Excellent comparison, Lalwende. And of course, Faramir had several advantages over Grima by virtue of his birth. He was a Numenorean of the highest blood, handsome and tall, and in a culture where it was thought perfectly acceptable to be a master of lore rather than weapons. When pushed to it, he was also a natural leader-a better one, as far as we can tell, than his brother-and physically strong enough to fight for his country. And as the son of the Steward he was already at the centre of power-and, critically, learned to be wary of power, knowing it had led to his mother's waning.

Grima did not even conform to the physical standards of Rohan, with his dark hair. He was born into a minor warrior nobility, where war and the practice of arms was everything. He was as far from power as possible, armed with only his wits. The urge to get there, to beat the great fighters, must have been his driving force throughout his early life. And not an unadmirable one. For though he always sought to serve himself, in the beginning he meant to do so by serving King and country as best he could. He was no good in battle-why not a spot of administration? But in the end his pride would take him into murkier waters.

[Elianna]

For another example of how Faramir and Gríma are similar, and the differences in that, check this out: Wizards' Pupils

[Kath]

Back to something Keeper of Dol Guldur said

So, if Saruman were to bend that focus onto one man, Theoden (who he could presumably monitor using his Palantir, which is what the movie logically came up with as the tool of the "sorcery" involved) then he may very well have been applying just a bit of pressure on Theoden.

How would this work? I was under the impression that the palantirs communicated with each other, that two people had to own one each to be able to talk - such as Saruman and Sauron.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Kath

I was under the impression that the palantirs communicated with each other...

Me too, Kath. Maybe it was just through Gríma, or maybe Gríma had minions of his own: weaker minded Rohirrim who had grudges against the king, Théodred, or Éomer. We saw them in the movie, punching Éomer and attacking Aragorn and Co. (only to be kung-fu-ed ). They could quickly carry messages from Edoras to Isengard without Théoden missing Gríma, and without Gríma missing a beat to keep Edoras under control.


Here's an interesting tid-bit about Gríma: Only he himself and Théoden (only when he's still not completely healed) call him just plain "Gríma" and not Wormtongue. Not even in the narration is he called Gríma. Always Wormtongue.