The Trickster's Consort

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

In the Scottish lore I know, cailleachs alternate between the crone and the maiden aspects, becoming beaughtiful if they are wooed and kissed.

So that's where George MacDonald got that theme....

Goldberry is elemental, certainly, but she is also Good, luminous, gentle, brave, cheerful. She has become one of my favorites. The power of Song weaves into all this, too, with Goldberry; did the cailleachs sing much?

I think Goldberry's song prepped Frodo before he crossed the threshold.

Nice thread, River-Daughter's Daughter!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Curiously, most of these water spirits are female, and the tales commonly begin with meeting a beautiful woman with exceptionally long hair, often sitting on a rock in a river or at the very edge of the water, whilst combing her hair, crying or lamenting. (Eruanna--emphasis mine)

Because of this, now I think Goldberry has something to do with Uinen, whose hair is spread throughout the waters of Middle-earth.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

Curiously, most of these water spirits are female, and the tales commonly begin with meeting a beautiful woman with exceptionally long hair, often sitting on a rock in a river or at the very edge of the water, whilst combing her hair, crying or lamenting. Sometimes these women have fish scales or indeed a fish tail. Goldberry it's interesting to note, wears shoes that glisten like fish scales and Tom Bombadil describes meeting her in such a fashion

This reminds me of the tale of the Lorelei. This is both the name of a place on the Rhine, and the name of the mythical woman who is said to dwell there, brushing her hair and luring men to their deaths. Of course, this is also very like the Greek myth of the Sirens, and the English folklore of Ginny Greenteeth or Peg O'Nell. But is Goldberry treacherous in any way? Does she 'lure' Tom? And does she lure him into a negative situation? He does seem to be very attentive, bringing her lilies, and treasures from the barrows.

The name 'cailleach bheur' is very similar to the modern word 'Corryvreckan', the name of a treacherous ocean whirlpool near Jura, and I'm beginning to wonder if this name, in its Scots Gaelic, not anglicised, version would be similar, as there are also folk tales surrounding the whirlpool. St Brigid also has some links to the worship of water and wells. Why must these female figures so often be linked to death and disaster though? Does this have anything to do with the old tale that it is bad luck to have women on board a ship?

Slightly rambling thoughts, but it is Friday afternoon...

[Bêthberry]

Thank you all for your responses!

Originally Posted by Anguirel

However, Tolkien seems to have far preferred the Saxon legend to Celtic stories. I suppose, though, that that would not prohibit him from borrowing from them; the Elves often seem not unlike Welsh or Irish figures, living under the hills or in the woods.

Not just preferred, I think. I believe there is a letter (which I cannot find now) where Tolkien states his dislike of celtic stories and myths. He also (again, I cannot find it in the letters at this moment) liked the Welsh language very much, if I am not mistaken.

Originally Posted by Eruanna

Tolkien suggests that there are elemental forces in M.E. Boromir's body is given into the keeping of a river;

If I am not mistaken, burial by sending a warrior out to sea in his boat with his weapons was part of the heroic tradition. It is in Beowulf. But I wonder: are there any instances in Middle earth of hostile water forces? (I can think of one in The Silm).

davem, that is an intriguing description of Guendolena from The Mystic Life of Merlin. I have never been able to find a copy of Geoffry of Monmouth's History of Britian but of course I'm sure Tolkien would have known it.

Originally Posted by Mark 12_30

The power of Song weaves into all this, too, with Goldberry; did the cailleachs sing much?

That might clearly be something to track down. I haven't read any really reliable versions of the old tales, just modern summaries. But song is certainly a significant aspect of Goldberry and you are right that it is song which wins Frodo over even before he sees the lily lady.

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Because of this, now I think Goldberry has something to do with Uinen, whose hair is spread throughout the waters of Middle-earth.

What I find fascinating about the story of Uinen is how she manages to restrain Ossë when Melkor almost seduced him, and arrange Ulmo's pardon for him.

To tell the truth, what really intrigued me about the name Cally Berry is simply the name, "berry" rather than all the attributes of the hag and maiden and water sprites. Having been given 'the berries' all my time here about my nick I was tickled to find some tangible link with old mythologies and not just juicy fruit. I took my nick from Goldberry for an RPG character and in fact once had "Bethberry" call to her mother to intervene with Uinen to calm wild waters in that game.

Besides Cally Berry, though, there is one other possible "respectable" (meaning less available to Downer's scalliwag teasing) source for the name berry.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary , berry is an Old English variant of "barrow", with the meanings "mound, hillock, or barrow", now obsolete except in dialect. There is also a now obsolete Renaissance meaning as "gust or blast of wind" and a Middle English use " to beat or thrash" as in thrashing corn.

EDIT: cross posting with Lal. A siren song certainly beckons to Frodo!

[Eruanna]

Because of this, now I think Goldberry has something to do with Uinen, whose hair is spread throughout the waters of Middle-earth.

An interesting idea! Perhaps it gives credence to the theory that Tom and Goldberry are, in fact, Maia. Goldberry may have been in the service of Uinen.

I had always discounted this idea before, mainly because the others (ie Gandalf) were clearly affected by the ring, yet Tom wasn't and he could see those that the Ring made invisible.The Ring has no power over him.
Tom and Goldberry seem to belong in their environment, they are very much part of the fabric of the land and the seasons, and yet apart from it.
To paraphrase Goldberry, they are.

Elemental spirits is the closest description that I can come up with, yet that does not solve the enigma. I hope that far more erudite posters that I may come up with something better.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

davem, that is an intriguing description of Guendolena from The Mystic Life of Merlin. I have never been able to find a copy of Geoffry of Monmouth's History of Britian but of course I'm sure Tolkien would have known it.

Geoffrey's History only contains the Prophecies of Merlin (fascinating in themselves - in fact Stewart wrote a book 'The Prophetic Vision of Merlin' on them) not the Vita Merlini. This is available (though difficult to obtain) seperately. It is included in this collection, among many other fascinating works in Myths & Legends of the British Isles:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

The History is available in Penguin Classics.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I wonder: are there any instances in Middle earth of hostile water forces?

There are a few obvious instances of hostile waters, although they do not pose such a threat to those on the side of 'good'. The Ford of Bruinen is one notable example, and also there is the power in the flood which the Ents release upon Isengard (nice mixture of the elements of wood and water there, too). Instances of water being a malevolent force, at least to those we wish to see succeed, seem to arise more from stagnant or standing water, such as the Dead Marshes, or the pool which houses the Watcher in the water outside Moria. Could it be that this water lacks energy, and therefore life, or even Light?

The water used by Galadriel is contained and therefore stil, but it is notably fresh water, from a running supply.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

According to the Oxford English Dictionary , berry is an Old English variant of "barrow", with the meanings "mound, hillock, or barrow", now obsolete except in dialect. There is also a now obsolete Renaissance meaning as "gust or blast of wind" and a Middle English use " to beat or thrash" as in thrashing corn.

Berry/Barrow in Old English is also found as beorg, meaning simply 'hill'. Not every place name with the word 'Barrow' had anything to do with burial mounds, it may simply have originated from the fact that the place was a hill, or was near one! Interestingly, Berry/Bury can often be found in place names denoting hills; the difference no doubt arose from non-standardised spelling or differences in local dialect.

[mark12_30]

Although I know little of the old legends, I am mighty fond of Goldberry. Things that intrigue me about her:

"Let us shut out the night. Fear nothing! For tonight you are in the house of Tom Bombadil."

Who shuts out the night? Tom? Goldberry? The two together? Either way, it's very impressive and very deep.

Tolkien makes a careful point that her dress rustles, I think in a silky sort of way. Leaves rustle, river reeds rustle... The water doesn't rustle, but things around it do. So the river-daughter is appropriately surrounded by rustling; but she herself sings. THere's something deep about that... somewhere.

Surrounded by lilies... Mithadan started a thread linking this to Song of Songs and I think he was right. So-- marital bliss, and fulfillment, and lots of other stuff.

All Tolkien's super-women were light of foot. But that doesn't make it unimportant. Goldberry leaped over the lily-pots and ran to the guests. We don't see elf-ladies running, except for Tinuviel (in song.) But rivers run. And they leap (over rapids and rocks, maybe not over lilies).

Goldberry (and Tom) dance as they clear the table (or were they setting the table?) I've always loved this. In Scotland, they danced in the kitchen because they only had two rooms, kitchen and bedroom. Ceili was held in the kitchen. But Goldberry and Tom aren't having a ceili. Or are they? Their whole ministry to the guests is like a ceili; songs, dances, stories. Perhaps it IS a ceili, arrival to departure.

Rain-- Goldberry makes rain lovely. The idea of a washed forest is just ... well... ...lovely. Lovely.

She sings in greeting and she sings in farewell.

I'm sure there are more but that will do for the moment. Do these qualities have roots in something findable? Is this archetypal stuff? Or what?

I shall ponder possible biblical connections....

[littlemanpoet]

Nilpaurion Felagund:

Because of this, now I think Goldberry has something to do with Uinen, whose hair is spread throughout the waters of Middle-earth.

I have always felt that Goldberry as River-daughter had to do with Uinen; ever since I first read The Silmarillion. Does it make Goldberry a Maia? Maybe. If she's a daughter of the river, which is feminine, does she have a father? Does she need one? Who can say? One of those mysteries. Is she perhaps a lock of Uinen's hair, come to life?

Lalwendé:

But is Goldberry treacherous in any way? Does she 'lure' Tom? And does she lure him into a negative situation?

Have you read the two Adventures of Tom Bombadil poems? In the first one, Goldberry trickes him, pulling on his beard that dangles over the Withywindle (that she is apparently swimming or living in, and steals his hat. Is she flirting?

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;

This suggests that Goldberry is trying to lure Tom to her mother's house, whatever that might mean.