LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 03 - The Black Gate Is Closed

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

One question always haunts me. What other entrances are there? Could they have got in from the North, or the East? What would have stopped them apart from the urgency of the task?

This has always intrigued me as well. Why not walk diagonally across the marshes and come around to Mount Doom from the North East? (or even go further south and approach from the South East?)

Do you think Gollum already had a notion in the back of his mind that he would lead the hobbits to Shelob, therefore he did not raise the possibility of another entrance?

Did Gollum know the black gate would be guarded as a stronghold and therefore impossible to pass?

Did Gollum actually know where the eastwards passage of the mountains ended anyway, and that there was an 'easy' entrance to mordor from the East?

As you can see, I'm raising more questions than answers here. Perhaps someone has the answer.....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Essex

This has always intrigued me as well. Why not walk diagonally across the marshes and come around to Mount Doom from the North East? (or even go further south and approach from the South East?)

Do you think Gollum already had a notion in the back of his mind that he would lead the hobbits to Shelob, therefore he did not raise the possibility of another entrance?

Did Gollum know the black gate would be guarded as a stronghold and therefore impossible to pass?

I have always put it down to the simple logistics of the mission that Frodo and Sam chose to follow Gollum's way into Mordor. It could have been that they had not seen a map of the place, as simple as that. Or it could have been due to time constraints that they had to get there as quickly as possible. This could be due to a lack of food or flagging energy, or possibly due to Frodo's awareness that the Ring was becoming an impossible burden and he had to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

But there must be more to it than this, and I think it ties into this:

Originally Posted by davem

So what does Smeagol think Frodo is going to do once he gets to Mordor with the 'Precious'?

It is strange that Gollum seems to be taking the Hobbits to the very place you would expect him not to want them to go to. And why does he take them to the Black Gate, interpreting Frodo's request so literally? We know Gollum is anything but slow on the uptake, and would have known that the Hobbits wanted to enter Mordor if they had asked to go to the Gate. It is incredibly tricksy of him to do this, possibly as a delaying tactic? Or to dishearten them so much that they accepted the perilous pass of Cirith Ungol? It brings to mind the dilemma Gandalf faced when having to choose between Caradhras and Moria.

What's Gollum up to here?

[tar-ancalime]

originally posted by davem:

So what does Smeagol think Frodo is going to do once he gets to Mordor with the 'Precious'? One thing that did occur was that Gollum is rather like Sauron, in that he seems uable to contemplate the possibility that anyone could wish to destroy the Ring. Gollum has fantasised about taking the Ring back & becoming all powerful - is this what he thinks Frodo is up to? Does he believe that Frodo is going to Mordor to challenge & throw down Sauron & set himself up in his place?

I have always been puzzled by this--I've never been able to reconcile satisfactorily Smeagol's helping Frodo get into Mordor with his desire for the Ring, since I've only considered two possible reasons for entering Mordor with the Ring: handing it over to Sauron, and destroying it, neither of which is favorable to Smeagol in the end (do I win a prize for convoluted sentence structure? ) . It never occurred to me that Frodo could try to supplant Sauron. The only (rather feeble) theory I had come up with to explain his willingness to enter Mordor was that Smeagol was going to try to steal the Ring at the last possible moment, and was perhaps biding his time till Frodo was assailed by orcs, or indeed by Shelob. I think that you, as usual, are closer to the mark.

[lord of dor-lomin]

We have been led to believe that Sauron can see everything

Well sure, but not all at once. Is it possible for anyone other than Eru to be omnipresent, or at least for their will and perception to be omnipresent? That doesn't seem possible. So naturally there are always going to be places that Sauron is not looking at.

What other entrances are there?

Well, they could've gone around to that sea, Nurnen I think, and entered that way, but it would've taken forever and they probably would've gotten caught. Then again, they logically should've been caught on the path they did take.

Aren't we seeing Frodo's ultimate failure at the Sammath Naur foreshadowed right here? If so, why do we continue with any hope? Do we share Sam's blind faith in Frodo, or is our faith, whether we realise it or not, in something (Someone) else?

I think that's it. The first time I read the book I didn't have an ounce of faith in Frodo. I mean, he couldn't willingly toss the Ring into his fireplace back in the Shire. That stuck with me and for the rest of the book I knew that Frodo couldn't possibly toss the Ring into the cracks. But I did think the Ring would get destroyed somehow. I suppose that I was counting on a hefty dose of luck or divine intervention.

Why does Smeagol think Frodo is going to Mordor?

Hmm... now I have to go back and read and see if I can't find something. I've never really thought about that. Any reason for going to Mordor is bad for Gollum. You know, I think Gollum helped as much as he did because of his oath and the fear of breaking it. If Frodo had tried to walk in the Black Gate, which would mean certain capture, I imagine that Gollum would've tried to take the Ring since it would've been his last chance.

Gollum was going to try to take the Ring, no doubt about that, but he put off taking it because of fear.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I have always put it down to the simple logistics of the mission that Frodo and Sam chose to follow Gollum's way into Mordor. It could have been that they had not seen a map of the place, as simple as that. Or it could have been due to time constraints that they had to get there as quickly as possible. This could be due to a lack of food or flagging energy, or possibly due to Frodo's awareness that the Ring was becoming an impossible burden and he had to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

Well, WE have all seen the maps, and other than the big hole at the rear end of Mordor, what entrances do we know of? And if they hadn't gone that way in the Books, would we even know about Cirith Ungol? As far as I can tell, the Morannon is the only obvious entrance on the north, west, or south sides of Mordor.

[Essex]

This has also given me another reason to re-read the books re how EARLY did Gollum's plan enter his head to kill the hobbits? Why on earth would he lead them to mordor? I suppose the oath has something to do with it, but gollum's not stupid, I think we can be fairly sure of that. Why on earth would he think the hobbits wanted to venture into mordor with the ring? to either fight or give up the ring.

Just thinking on my feet about the last sentence. I began to write "or destroy it" at the end. But thinking about it, how would Gollum know you COULD destroy the ring by throwing it in to the cracks of doom?

(come to think of it, how do gandalf and elrond know this - or was it an educated guess?)

[lord of dor-lomin]

But thinking about it, how would Gollum know you COULD destroy the ring by throwing it in to the cracks of doom?

(come to think of it, how do gandalf and elrond know this - or was it an educated guess?)

I've always wondered this, too. Did Elrond take a sample from the Ring and toss it into the cracks? "Yep, it disolved, just like we thought."

How could they have possibly known for certain that Mt Doom would destroy it? Since Sauron can stoke Mt Doom's fire, isn't it possible that he got it hotter than it had ever been for the creation of the Ring, and that it would take his purposeful tinkering to get it that hot again, and that the Ring could only be destroyed in that way- Sauron doing it on purpose by turning the knob on Mt Doom to the "Ring-creation/destruction" temperature setting?

[Firefoot]

As far as other routes go: even if Frodo and Sam had seen a map and known about the open entrance to Mordor in the east, it would have been entirely impractical. As near as I can tell, just from the Dead Marshes to the eastern end of the Ash Mountains is about 450 miles - and that's just one way. So they're looking at about a total of 900 miles (not even taking into considerations the mountains that extend southward into Mordor). Not only would this take an excessive amount of time, but they are also on limited food supplies - I think Sam estimates in the Emyn Muil that they have about enough lembas to last for three weeks - not nearly enough for a 900 mile trek. And of course there is time - which is certainly an issue. Much of the hope in destroying the Ring was in speed. Sauron was moving; they had to make their move now. Gandalf says about following the sea south as opposed to Moria: "As for the longer road: we cannot afford the time. We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless." Isn't this basically the same scenario?

Why does Smeagol think Frodo is going to Mordor?

As other people have said, I find this a fascinating question, one I had not thought of before. The destruction of the Ring has not crossed his mind (Mount Doom: "Wicked masster cheats us, cheats Smeagol. ... He mussn't hurt Preciouss!"). He understands that their mission is secret, and that they do not aim to hand the Ring over to Sauron, hence the secret way through the Marshes and his persuasion not to go through the Black Gate. We know that Gollum was previously "drawn to" Mordor; perhaps Gollum thinks Frodo is in the same position? Most likely, though, is that Gollum thinks Frodo intends to claim the Ring as his own and challenge Sauron.

We know Gollum is anything but slow on the uptake, and would have known that the Hobbits wanted to enter Mordor if they had asked to go to the Gate. It is incredibly tricksy of him to do this, possibly as a delaying tactic? Or to dishearten them so much that they accepted the perilous pass of Cirith Ungol?

I think perhaps a bit of both. Certainly Gollum would want to keep Frodo with him for as long as possible. And also, by taking them to the Black Gate as Frodo asked, the hobbits will see how well guarded the place is, as Smeagol already knows. It will force the hobbits to trust him that there is a less guarded way. Otherwise, the hobbits would simply have to take his word that the Black Gate was impossible to pass.

I think this chapter really shows the reader the reality of the incredibly hopeless task Frodo has been given. In sight of the forbidding descriptions of the mountains and the Teeth of Mordor, this hopelessness is certainly understandable! We see how little hope Frodo and Sam have in the mission (and like Esty, the "he had never had any real hope in the whole affair from the beginning, but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, so long as despair had been postponed" quote is among my favorites), but also their determination to see it through shines through. Even in light of the foreshadowing that Frodo would not be able to finish, we can see his strength of character, both by the description Tolkien gives us and by the way he speaks to Gollum. The hobbits are down but not out, and throughout the despair in the chapter, there are enough gleams of hope that it encourages us that the hobbits may still make it.

On the whole, this is one of my favorite chapters. The action scenes are great - many of them number among my favorites - but I think that it's really the passages in chapters like this one that keeps me coming back to the book.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Essex

But thinking about it, how would Gollum know you COULD destroy the ring by throwing it in to the cracks of doom?

To add to that, would Gollum even consider the fact that anyone would want to destroy his precious? He's probably very much like Sauron in that respect.

Another possibility of what he was up to might be that he knew the Hobbits were likely to be caught and so he could hope to get the ring under such circumstances. That he won't allow them through the Black Gate still allows for this possibility as he would be unlikely to want the Hobbits caught in such visible circumstances; a more chaotic capture in some hidden corner of Mordor would be more to his advantage.

Originally Posted by Essex

(come to think of it, how do gandalf and elrond know this - or was it an educated guess?)

I think that as ringbearers themselves, Gandalf and Elrond would know something of the history of how all the rings were made. Whether passed on by lore or through some sense conferred by the rings they bore, I'm not sure, though the latter would be the more attractive proposition given that the One now has power over all the rings.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Essex

come to think of it, how do gandalf and elrond know this - or was it an educated guess?)

I still stick to the idea that it was the fact that the fires of Orodruin welled up from the heart of the earth - the very place where Eru had sent the Secret Fire to 'dwell'. therefore it was actually a 'Holy' place, misused by Sauron, but that its 'holiness' could overcome the power put into it, therefore it had to be brought to that one particular place.

This seems to me to tie in with what we've been discussing on the 'Morgoth' thread, about the way Eru incorporated Melkor's themes into the Ainulindale, yet could state that those themes still 'had their uttermost source' in Him...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Essex

This has also given me another reason to re-read the books re how EARLY did Gollum's plan enter his head to kill the hobbits? Why on earth would he lead them to mordor? I suppose the oath has something to do with it, but gollum's not stupid, I think we can be fairly sure of that. Why on earth would he think the hobbits wanted to venture into mordor with the ring? to either fight or give up the ring.

Well, Gollum may even have suspected it. Surely he suspected SOMETHING, and I doubt if he thought about that something without misgivings, but he was surely smart enough to see that he couldn't dissuade Frodo, but at the same time he didn't dare leave the Ring once he had finally found it. He HAD to go with Frodo to stay near it.

Originally Posted by davem

I still stick to the idea that it was the fact that the fires of Orodruin welled up from the heart of the earth - the very place where Eru had sent the Secret Fire to 'dwell'. therefore it was actually a 'Holy' place, misused by Sauron, but that its 'holiness' could overcome the power put into it, therefore it had to be brought to that one particular place.

Another possibility is foresight. Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, every other Dunadan, they all seem to be gifted with this. Perhaps it was a revelation of Iluvatar. Perhaps it was a part of the lore that Saruman and Gandalf brought out of the West. Perhaps they remembered a small part of the Ainulindale. Who knows?

[Lalwendë]

I have to get this one in before we go on to the next chapter. I noticed something interesting about how Sam's recitation of the Oliphaunt verse is presented:

Sam stood up, putting his hands behind his back (as he always did when 'speaking poetry'), and began:
Grey as a mouse,
Big as a house,
Nose like a snake,
I make the earth shake,
As I tramp through the grass;
Trees crack as I pass.
With horns in my mouth
I walk in the South,
Flapping big ears.
Beyond count of years
I stump round and round,
Never lie on the ground,
Not even to die.
Oliphaunt am I,
Biggest of all,
Huge, old, and tall.
If ever you'd met me
You wouldn't forget me.
If you never do,
You won't think I'm true;
But old Oliphaunt am I,
And I never lie.

Couple this with his description of his assumptions about the 'Swertings' and he reminds me of a schoolboy, uncertainly reciting from memory a simple verse to 'explain' something far away and foreign. It brought to mind an older time, maybe schools of the 1920's/1930's, when such recitation would be common, and also often used to describe or explain 'foreign things', maybe things from far flung corners of the British Empire.

I wonder if anyone else notices this as somehow reminiscent of old traditional schools? Maybe we could see into this that Sam is like the ordinary schoolboy while Frodo is almost like a 'prefect', the older and more intelligent boy, or maybe he is like the 'scholar', protected by his more down to earth friend. Frodo's recitation of verse often seems to be of the more complex Elven variety, while Sam seems to remember the simpler verses. Could there be anything in this comparison of the two Hobbits?

[davem]

I wonder if the Oliphaunt song is one of Sam's own compositions, like the troll song. As an aside, I seem to remember Bob Stewart mentioning (possibly in 'The UnderWorld Initiation' or 'Where is St George: Pagan Imagery in English Folksong') that certain folk songs & ballads, or particular variants of them, were handed down in families, & it was considered very bad form for non family members to sing them. Tolkien seems to make reference to this in The Hobbit, where Bilbo returns to Bag End to find his goods & chattels being auctioned off for prices 'from next to nothing to old songs'. The implication being that these 'old songs' were a valuable commodity & could be exchanged for goods & services...

(edit: Lalwende points out the old saying 'going for a song' referring to something obtained cheaply, which Brewers Dictionary of Phrase & Fable suggests dates back to a time when ballad sheets were sold for a few pennies, or perhaps to the few coins tossed to street performers. Having said that, Tolkien does seem to imply that 'next to nothing' is at one extreme of the payment scale, while 'old songs' are at the other.)