Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

In short, all of the characters (Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, WK, armies, etc) powered up as the story proceeded, but PJ was inconsistent/inconsiderate in regards to Gandalf.

Yes, I agree. If there is any inconsistency in the portrayal of their respective "power levels" in the films, it is with regard to Gandalf the White rather than the Witch-king.

Tricky subject this though, as the extent of Gandalf the White's powers is not entirely clear from the book, by virtue of the restriction placed upon him as one of the Istari. He only uses his powers "offensively" in times of utmost need. While his true nature and limitations as one of the Istari are not addressed in the films, this will have had an effect on his film portrayal. And I agree with Essex that the book leaves open the question of who would have prevailed in a confrontation between him and the Witch-king at the time of the attack on Minas Tirith.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Tricky subject this though, as the extent of Gandalf the White's powers is not entirely clear from the book, by virtue of the restriction placed upon him as one of the Istari. He only uses his powers "offensively" in times of utmost need. While his true nature and limitations as one of the Istari are not addressed in the films, this will have had an effect on his film portrayal.

Agreed. My opinion from reading the books is that Gandalf was permitted to use his powers only when needed to 'level the playing field,' and when in doing so he did not usurp another's chance to 'shine.' When Sauron and company start cheating at 'the game,' Gandalf jumps in. He can never force anyone to take action, but is permitted to persuade. Gandalf inspires hope and dispels fear so that characters can act as they'd want to. I've posted examples regarding this previously in this thread.

And I agree with Essex that the book leaves open the question of who would have prevailed in a confrontation between him and the Witch-king at the time of the attack on Minas Tirith.

As we have no data regarding the outcome, it then comes down to opinion. I leave you and Essex to your follies...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

As we have no data regarding the outcome, it then comes down to opinion. I leave you and Essex to your follies...

Ah, but I expressed no opinion. I simply noted that the question is left open.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Ah, but I expressed no opinion. I simply noted that the question is left open.

To even raise the question assumes that there could be more than one possible outcome .

And though Eowyn and Merry would still 'do in' the Witch King, I think that had he not left when he did, he would ridden away from the gate smarting from (at the very least) a wizard-induced wedgie.

[Essex]

I ask (again) why did Tolkien write the passage with the WK entering the city and confronting Gandalf? To show that the Rohirrim SAVED THE DAY. Not to show that Gandalf could have beaten the WK or vice versa.

In the movie, PJ just takes this a level or two higher (yes, I would have rathered Gandalf not looking so 'fearful', but this was PJ's way of showing that the 'world of men' has not failed, but were about to prevail).

This is EXACTLY what this scene is in the movie AND BOOK for. To highten the tension, to ratchet it up until we hear the horns of the rohirrim who save the day. This scene is not for us to see who would win in a battle between Gandalf and the WK. THAT IS IMMATERIAL TO THE STORY.

We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman.

So let's put this question into perspective. To me, it's at the same level of 'My dad's bigger than your dad' or 'Tom's older than Treebeard.'

[davem]

Originally Posted by Essex

We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman.

Just for the sake of having another argument with Essex - Its entirely possible that Gandalf could have defeated the WK - its even possible that that was one of the reasons he was 'sent back'. The prophecy spoke only of 'no living man'. As Gandalf was not a 'living man' but (to use Tolkien's term) 'an incarnate angel', its very likely that he could have brought down the WK. In fact that seems to have been exactly what he was in the process of doing when the Rohirrim turned up. I have to say that in my reading Gandalf seems pretty damn annoyed that he has to leave the WK to go rescue Faramir & says somewhat to the effect that others will suffer because he has been called away.

( I will use this as an excuse to link to another painting by my favourite Tolkien artist, S. Juchimov)
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ru_gand...zguL_minas.jpg

[Essex]

Just to carry on the argument with Davem

its very likely that he could have brought down the WK. In fact that seems to have been exactly what he was in the process of doing when the Rohirrim turned up.

Please explain where you get this reasoning from. He was facing up to the Witch King. Not, in fact, bringing him down.

and

I have to say that in my reading Gandalf seems pretty damn annoyed that he has to leave the WK to go rescue Faramir

Absolutley. i stated that earlier. He had to possibly sacrifice the lives of many to save one. As he said - no one else could help Faramir, so he had to. Of COURSE Gandalf wanted to go after the WK. I'm not disputing that.

I think the WK was pretty scary in the book, and in the films (for his enemies that is). Though the balrog was clearly another proposition, more menacing, a larger opponent. If Gandalf could defeat the Balrog, he would be strong favourite against the WK.

We don't really see enough of Sauron in the film though, or the book. I am a big fan of him, and I could see him creating havoc in the ranks of Gondor, though he'd probably be too lazy to march so far to war, nor would there be any need for him 2 get off his thrown, unless he was forced to by the threat of Gondor, as in the last alliance battle. I'd love to see a film based on that part of ME history!!!

Anyone else agree?