If he knew..

[Eruanna]

Originally posted by Makar

In the films, it seems PJ tried his hardest to make it marijuana

I too had a sense of this. Mainly in the scene when Merry and Pippin greet the others at Orthanc after the Battle of Helm's Deep ('Flotsam and Jetsam') although it's obvious that they have been drinking they seem to put their rather dizzy behaviour down to pipeweed.
Also, in the scene where Pippin goes off to Minas Tirith with Gandalf, Merry is very concerned that Pip is smoking too much. Surely a sign that smoking too much weed is detrimental to one's health?

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

Surely a sign that smoking too much weed is detrimental to one's health?

As to 'anti-smoking propoganda' in the movies (such as the afore-mentioned scene), there is (in the RotK EE) a scene where Gandalf is smoking and coughing. The same scene, I might add, is in the theatrical version as well, but the cough is absent.

Originally Posted by dwarfguard

Maybe the reason you never here elves smoke is because mortals might of originated the practice.

Hobbits claim to have originated the 'art' of smoking (see Merry's statement to Theoden, LotR, book III, chapter IX).


All right, enough references, now for my opinion. Or do I have an opinion?... I'll have to think that over.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

Also, in the scene where Pippin goes off to Minas Tirith with Gandalf, Merry is very concerned that Pip is smoking too much. Surely a sign that smoking too much weed is detrimental to one's health?

Originally Posted by elronds_daughter

As to 'anti-smoking propoganda' in the movies (such as the afore-mentioned scene), there is (in the RotK EE) a scene where Gandalf is smoking and coughing. The same scene, I might add, is in the theatrical version as well, but the cough is absent.

All this time I've been thinking about how pleasantly surprised I was that the references to smoking weren't cut from the films, and it turns out that there were sneaky anti-smoking references in there! I'm genuinely disappointed.

As a smoker, and one who tries to be considerate, I find some refuge in LotR, where there is a world where tobacco can be smoked in peace and comfort, and where it seemingly does no harm (the holy grail of smokers must be non-harmful tobacco ). I suppose it is to be expected that the films had to include something about the harmful effects of smoking, but all the same I'm disappointed.

'Weed' is still a word used for tobacco, though it isn't as common as it once was, possibly due to the drug references. I have never thought the Hobbits smoked anything worse than tobacco, but it's not surprising this got picked up on as LotR grew so strongly in popularity in the late 60's and the fabled (exaggerated?) hippy drug culture. But isn't this a later slang term? I believe it would have gone under the name 'pot' back then.

Originally Posted by Makar

Although I do like Gandalf's "before you knock it, try it first" (to paraphrase) line to Saruman in UT.

But kids, don't take Gandalf's words too literally...

[Eruanna]

Originally posted by Lalwendë

I find some refuge in LotR, where there is a world where tobacco can be smoked in peace and comfort, and where it seemingly does no harm

This is part of the rustic charm of the Hobbits. When we read about pipe smoking now, knowing the risks as we do, we can give a wry smile at it being described as an art. Pipes have always been seen as the choice of the elderly or the less sophisticated. Right up to the 1970s cigarette smoking was seen as the height of sophistication and grown-up glamour. Remember the glamorous film stars who seemed to chain smoke through a film?

I wonder why PJ decided to include those scenes which seem to be against smoking. I have read about some of the film production companies refusing to include smoking scenes in films. Perhaps he had to do so in order to negate any criticism that he was advocating pipe smoking.

[Makar]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

I too had a sense of this. Mainly in the scene when Merry and Pippin greet the others at Orthanc after the Battle of Helm's Deep ('Flotsam and Jetsam') although it's obvious that they have been drinking they seem to put their rather dizzy behaviour down to pipeweed.

Not to mention the extended scene in TT with Merry and Pip in the gate house, laughing hysterically, with smoke pouring out of the door and Treebeard "hmmmming". The same is true in the scene where Gandalf is choking off of his pipe. He's laughing and he keeps hitting it while he cough's. And then there's Saruman's line about the clouding of minds.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

All this time I've been thinking about how pleasantly surprised I was that the references to smoking weren't cut from the films, and it turns out that there were sneaky anti-smoking references in there! I'm genuinely disappointed.

I don't think that these scenes were included as overt "anti-smoking propaganda", but rather as reflections of current attitudes towards smoking.

If the "anti-smoking police" had got their hands on these films, there would have been no pipeweed whatsoever. In the UK, there is a move to take scenes of smoking into account when certifying a film.

Having said that, it may be that it was felt (probably by others than Jackson) that oblique references to the harmful effects of smoking were necessary in a "family" film that otherwise portrays pipe smoking in a positive light (the scene with Gandalf and Bilbo watching over the Party in FotR, for example).

[elronds_daughter]

I don't think that these scenes were included as overt "anti-smoking propaganda", but rather as reflections of current attitudes towards smoking.

I believe one of the LotR cast originally used that phrase.... I was merely quoting.

In the UK, there is a move to take scenes of smoking into account when certifying a film.

There is such a move in the U.S. as well.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

I don't think that these scenes were included as overt "anti-smoking propaganda", but rather as reflections of current attitudes towards smoking.

If the "anti-smoking police" had got their hands on these films, there would have been no pipeweed whatsoever. In the UK, there is a move to take scenes of smoking into account when certifying a film.

Given this, and some time to calm down from my shock that there actually were some messages against smoking in the films (I was thinking "Oh, is nothing sacred these days in the face of the health police?"), they were actually quite subtle messages. Given that I didn't even notice them, they must have been!

Considering just how much Tolkien seems to advocate the joys of smoking it must have been quite difficult to reconcile this with the very vocal, and often quite hysterical (put into context with the many other health risks we all face) anti-smoking lobby. Of course, Tolkien lived in a different world, and while smoking had been by then identified as risky behaviour, it was not quite as villified as it is today. His works also include rather a lot of eating and drinking, and I wonder whether such things would be excised entirely from a film version 50 years down the line? I can see the Green Dragon being replaced with the Green Gym, the Hobbits meeting to socialise over a bottle of mineral water and an alfalfa salad, while the Gaffer mutters darkly about his BMI in the background.

But just to play devil's advocate, I was interested to note how drinking was portrayed as a joyous pastime in the films. Where were the associated hangovers? Not to mention injuries caused by drunken horse riding or aggressive young Tooks causing fights?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I was interested to note how drinking was portrayed as a joyous pastime in the films. Where were the associated hangovers?

Clearly, Pippin's failure to master the Palantir is a direct consequence of his "over-indulgence" during the evening's celebrations.

[Rimbaud]

To answer your question Lal, in part: Tollers was perhaps of an era, or certainly from the background, where a drink was fun, and a few could be very fun, but people, homely respectable people much like Hobbits (even the younger ones), did not feel the contemporary urge to drink as much as possible in order to become paralysingly inebriated, to the point where a kebab seems like a good idea.

One imagines that the beer they are drinking is also fairly natural wholesome stuff, with not much in common with the watery additive-syrups posing as lagers today. A couple of beers from natural ingredients on a full stomach over a few hours of chat, is unlikely to give an adult male a headache.

Add to that that the small folk always drank on exceptionally full stomachs and had plenty of rest and a proper amount of sleep, as well as having healthy outdoor lives much of the time, and you begin to see how they managed to stay pretty sharp.

To be honest, if I had little to do all day but to wake late, rise later and go for walks and plan dinner, I imagine I would become somewhat inured to the 'morning after'.