Let's Talk Morgoth

[burrahobbit]

Sauron didn't get anything. Melkor didn't make him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Sauron didn't get anything. Melkor didn't make him.

Didn't mean that. Sauron received some instruction from Melkor - learned the 'theme' of Melkor; made his music in accord with that of Melkor and not that of Iluvatar.

Would Sauron have taken the side that he did if Melkor had not led/shown/provided the way? Did Melkor say, "Hey, Maia, check this out/try some of this..."?

[Makar]

Originally Posted by alatar

Would Sauron have taken the side that he did if Melkor had not led/shown/provided the way? Did Melkor say, "Hey, Maia, check this out/try some of this..."?

To me, this raises an even bigger question, about the nature of evil in JRRTs writing. Would Sauron have ever been evil without Melkor? Evil seems such an alien concept to the other Vala that they let Morgoth go after his imprisonment. It seems that can't concieve of why someone would want to commit acts of evil. This leads to the question, why was Melkor evil? Was this part of Iluvatar's plan? If so, why did Eru begin with plans for Melkor and Manwe to be brothers in his mind and why do the other themes seem to have been in response to Melkor's theme?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Makar

To me, this raises an even bigger question, about the nature of evil in JRRTs writing. Would Sauron have ever been evil without Melkor?

Hard to say. I think that Sauron as a Maia needed a Valar to show the way, yet may have been 'born' with the wiring that allowed him to be easily led astray.

Evil seems such an alien concept to the other Vala that they let Morgoth go after his imprisonment. It seems that can't concieve of why someone would want to commit acts of evil. This leads to the question, why was Melkor evil? Was this part of Iluvatar's plan?

Someone has to pull the trigger. And of course Melkor was part of the plan from the get-go. Assume Iluvatar is an omniscient, omnipresent god. How could anything be unknown to him? Also, as with Aule, Iluvatar did not want robots. And my favorite part of the Valaquenta is where it is stated that Iluvatar makes 'good'' from Melkor's perversions - like snow crystals, etc. Think about how boring Valinor would be without Melkor.

If so, why did Eru begin with plans for Melkor and Manwe to be brothers in his mind and why do the other themes seem to have been in response to Melkor's theme?

If you really want some trouble, go with siblings. For example, my brother and I have gotten into fights over the silliest of things. He knows exactly how to push my buttons, and though there've been times that I've raised my fists to him, I remember that I love him, that's he's my brother, and so he skates (then, as my guard is down, he whips my butt).

Think that like the Greek/Roman gods/goddesses, you have more competition from those at your level, neither parents nor children but siblings.