Maia of music, hide no longer!

[Encaitare]

Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

This sparks an interesting idea... perhaps he used some form of music for evil -- maybe that was part of Morgoth's "slow arts of cruelty" in creating the orcs. Maybe it was the deed "most hateful to Iluvatar" in part because he turned the music that Iluvatar gave the Ainur to such terrible purpose.

[mark12_30]

...which might answer why, in spite of how horrible orcs are, they still sing. Ho ho, my lads. (Stravinsky?? Just kidding.)

When I think back over the Sil, what songs stick in my mind? Luthien's song before Morgoth; Melian's song in Lorien when the brooks stopped flowing to listen; Yavanna's song that germinated the Two Trees. Song is used to entrance, to please, and to create.

In Phantom, the first two apply. But does the third?

[Encaitare]

In Phantom, the first two apply. But does the third?

Am pondering this... it seems that since music is the Phantom's passion, it creates this little world to which he can recede whenever he wants. It also creates love -- but this sense of creation is different than in Middle-earth. In M-e it has tangible results.

Will continue to ponder... hasn't anyone else anything to add? Come on, I know we've got plenty of Phantom Phans around here...

[Elianna]

Of course we're out here, but personally, I haven't read Silm yet. I am much enjoying this conversation though. Please continue.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

An interesting topic indeed, and I haven't even seen the new Phantom movie (although I've seen the 1925 original silent with Lon Chaney!). A thought that occurred to me from Helen's quote above was that Morgoth was diminished when he wrought his evil will to a certain extent. He lost his ability to change form and was stuck with one form of being in Middle Earth. Perhaps this is tied to the fading of his 'music,' in a metaphorical if not actual sense. His actual ability to create music as he had was perhaps a casualty of his evil path, and he wishes to renew himself without necessarily changing his ways.

This thread came to mind when I pondered just why Morgoth would covet Luthien: Uhg, a Terrible Thought . Perhaps he wished to tear the essence of her song from her in a way, coveting not only her beauty but her purity and ability to sing a powerful song...

These are incompletely formed thoughts, and I suppose it would help if I saw the new movie, but the theme of covetousness is there in the old one as well (as well as a wondrous full color Masque scene--unusual for 1925!) It has been a little while since my last reading of the Silmarillion as well, so any corrections or clarifications on any point are welcome!

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. I find it somewhat ironic that the founder of the thread I linked above is none other than the phantom!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The new "Phantom" movie hasn't been released over here yet, so I can't add anything to that aspect of the discussion. However, the question on Melkor's possible music after his rebellion made me think of one style that would seem appropriate - Death Metal!!

[Evisse the Blue]

This topic puzzles me much...I like everyone's ideas, but for me the similarity between the Beren/Luthien/Morgoth trio and the Raoul/Christine/Phantom trio is only superficial. The relationship between them is totally different. Christine was somewhat attracted to the Phantom, and the Phantom despite being evil, had some kind of appeal. Morgoth on the other hand didn't, and I think no one will contradict me on that. Their motivations, as had been already suggested, were very different. Also Christine wasn't a great musician from the start, she was mediocre and she became great only under the Phantom's influence. It's a relationship of student/master and the Phantom's primal motivation is not to seduce Christine, but to relive past glory through her singing (that is actually induced by him) - I am the mask you wear, it's me they hear). Luthien on the other hand weaves her own magic on Morgoth and thwarts his will to her purpose. She's the greater musician, and being Morgoth's total opposite, defeats him by a device that he once mastered too - singing - only she does it better. The fact that he lusts after her does not affect Luthien one bit - it is probably part of the 'plan', he is unable to carry out his mischief anyway and he is completely under her spell.

How the music is treated in Middle Earth: like an instrument, I think (pardon the pun). It is a means to an end, be it a weapon or a medicine. It heals and destroys but it never takes 'center stage'. While in 'Phantom of the Opera', the music is the means, the cause and the ultimate purpose.

Note: I didn't see the recent movie PoTO. I base my judgements on the original book my Gaston Leroux. (with so many different sources, we're bound to have different opinions )

My favourite instances of musical power in Lord of the Rings are Fingon battling Sauron (the account of that gives me chills down my spine) and Luthien singing to the Valar for Beren (this one reminds me of the story of Orpheus who sang his way to the the Inferno to save Euridyke).

However, the question on Melkor's possible music after his rebellion made me think of one style that would seem appropriate - Death Metal!!

Haha, that's flippant! But true!