Let's Talk Morgoth

[alatar]

Melkor, unlike the other Valar, sought dominion and this required a piece of himself to be given up. Like when Aule created the Dwarves, they had no soul/freedom until it was given to them by Eru; Melkor sought to take away freedom, and in order to do so he needed to take a piece of himself and seed the item, soul, etc as he did not have the power/ability that Eru has.

Others created, and he perverted. To twist or destroy the thing that his brethren created, he again had to yield part of himself. In later ages his 'power' therefore was still considerable, yet if he were stripped of all of the 'help' and devices that he had seeded, then one would see that his power had declined as it was diluted amongst his servants and slaves.

But, to get back to the original question, all of these seeds became part of the world though having their origin in Melkor.

And I think that JRRT had Lucifer/Satan in mind when he wrote about Melkor as there are many similarities between the two.

[burrahobbit]

No matter how much it might have been diluted, it was still there, and there isn't anything that you can do to change that. That's the point. All you can do is deal with it as it pops up (in your heart).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

No matter how much it might have been diluted, it was still there, and there isn't anything that you can do to change that. That's the point. All you can do is deal with it as it pops up (in your heart).

Agreed. What I mean regarding 'diluted' is that Melkor gave away pieces of himself so that his 'strength' was diminished. Those who received a seed would then pass it along as able.

So today we may all have a little bit of Melkor in us - nothing like what Sauron got - then again, we are not Eldar, Edain, etc, as our blood has intermingled and thinned.

Some succumb to Melkor's call, others defy it.

[burrahobbit]

Sauron didn't get anything. Melkor didn't make him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Sauron didn't get anything. Melkor didn't make him.

Didn't mean that. Sauron received some instruction from Melkor - learned the 'theme' of Melkor; made his music in accord with that of Melkor and not that of Iluvatar.

Would Sauron have taken the side that he did if Melkor had not led/shown/provided the way? Did Melkor say, "Hey, Maia, check this out/try some of this..."?

[Makar]

Originally Posted by alatar

Would Sauron have taken the side that he did if Melkor had not led/shown/provided the way? Did Melkor say, "Hey, Maia, check this out/try some of this..."?

To me, this raises an even bigger question, about the nature of evil in JRRTs writing. Would Sauron have ever been evil without Melkor? Evil seems such an alien concept to the other Vala that they let Morgoth go after his imprisonment. It seems that can't concieve of why someone would want to commit acts of evil. This leads to the question, why was Melkor evil? Was this part of Iluvatar's plan? If so, why did Eru begin with plans for Melkor and Manwe to be brothers in his mind and why do the other themes seem to have been in response to Melkor's theme?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Makar

To me, this raises an even bigger question, about the nature of evil in JRRTs writing. Would Sauron have ever been evil without Melkor?

Hard to say. I think that Sauron as a Maia needed a Valar to show the way, yet may have been 'born' with the wiring that allowed him to be easily led astray.

Evil seems such an alien concept to the other Vala that they let Morgoth go after his imprisonment. It seems that can't concieve of why someone would want to commit acts of evil. This leads to the question, why was Melkor evil? Was this part of Iluvatar's plan?

Someone has to pull the trigger. And of course Melkor was part of the plan from the get-go. Assume Iluvatar is an omniscient, omnipresent god. How could anything be unknown to him? Also, as with Aule, Iluvatar did not want robots. And my favorite part of the Valaquenta is where it is stated that Iluvatar makes 'good'' from Melkor's perversions - like snow crystals, etc. Think about how boring Valinor would be without Melkor.

If so, why did Eru begin with plans for Melkor and Manwe to be brothers in his mind and why do the other themes seem to have been in response to Melkor's theme?

If you really want some trouble, go with siblings. For example, my brother and I have gotten into fights over the silliest of things. He knows exactly how to push my buttons, and though there've been times that I've raised my fists to him, I remember that I love him, that's he's my brother, and so he skates (then, as my guard is down, he whips my butt).

Think that like the Greek/Roman gods/goddesses, you have more competition from those at your level, neither parents nor children but siblings.